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	<title>Comments on: Australia&#8217;s surprisingly secure workers</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:37:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Australia&#8217;s surprisingly secure workers, part 5</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-55065</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Australia&#8217;s surprisingly secure workers, part 5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-55065</guid>
		<description>[...] reduced job security, as part of their fight against &#8220;unfair&#8221; dismissal laws. But it is surprisingly hard to find evidence that the legal arrangements surrounding employment security have any significant [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reduced job security, as part of their fight against &#8220;unfair&#8221; dismissal laws. But it is surprisingly hard to find evidence that the legal arrangements surrounding employment security have any significant [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-261</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-261</guid>
		<description>Andrew Norton wrote:
David - Though it</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew Norton wrote:<br />
David - Though it</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-260</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-260</guid>
		<description>Andrew - I think you misread the post. I was starting out with the hypothesis in Tanya P's op-ed that there is a relationship between legal employment status and subjective feelings of job security, which is intuitively plausible. However, based on the evidence of little difference between workers I concluded, like you, that other factors are more important - though we do not agree on those other factors.

One factor I did not mention in the post - it's a post in itself - is that workers are much more likely to believe that they might be sacked than the objective statistics warrant. For example, at the end of 2003 20% of the workforce in Morgan's poll thought they might be sacked, but in the following year less than 3% of workers were in fact sacked. Double that because some workers may have felt they had no choice but to quit, and we are still way short of the subjective concerns. Rather than Australians having, as you suggest, a propensity not to worry, in this instance they worry too much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew - I think you misread the post. I was starting out with the hypothesis in Tanya P&#8217;s op-ed that there is a relationship between legal employment status and subjective feelings of job security, which is intuitively plausible. However, based on the evidence of little difference between workers I concluded, like you, that other factors are more important - though we do not agree on those other factors.</p>
<p>One factor I did not mention in the post - it&#8217;s a post in itself - is that workers are much more likely to believe that they might be sacked than the objective statistics warrant. For example, at the end of 2003 20% of the workforce in Morgan&#8217;s poll thought they might be sacked, but in the following year less than 3% of workers were in fact sacked. Double that because some workers may have felt they had no choice but to quit, and we are still way short of the subjective concerns. Rather than Australians having, as you suggest, a propensity not to worry, in this instance they worry too much.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-259</guid>
		<description>Dear Andrew

Respectfully, you either struggle with analysis or are quite clever in conflating unrelated issues.  You assume a correlation between casualisation and job security, but there is no causative link.   It is a much more tenable argument to suggest that perception of job security is a function of perceptions of the economic situation (and probably the levels of micro-economic reform).   The economy has been going well for a long time and micro economic reform virtually stopped with the election of the Howard Government, providing a higher sense of job security.  The (slow) casualisation of the workforce is unlikely to be a factor at all in this outcome, but you assume it to be central.

You make a similar error when noting that just under half of all employees 'don't worry about losing their job'.  This is statistically open to interpretation, and given the figures and the recent history of employment, it is probably more a statement regarding Australians and their propensity not to worry, rather than your interpretation that these people feel secure in their job.   Either way, a statisitcally inconclusive outcome appears to have been 'spun'.     An alternative reading of those statistics is the scary proposition that more than half of all workers are worried about job security, and the really frightening thing is that regualr employees are just as uncertain in their employment future as casuals.

Then start to analyse that a lot of casual employment is undertaken by people who have no intention of having a 'career' in that field and are just working their way through uni, acting, whatever, and they really don't give two hoots about job security.

You are then left with the original statistics, which are interesting, your cherry picking a few which starts to look like damned statistics, and your analysis, which just looks like 'spin'.

Nice try though.   A lot of people might buy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Andrew</p>
<p>Respectfully, you either struggle with analysis or are quite clever in conflating unrelated issues.  You assume a correlation between casualisation and job security, but there is no causative link.   It is a much more tenable argument to suggest that perception of job security is a function of perceptions of the economic situation (and probably the levels of micro-economic reform).   The economy has been going well for a long time and micro economic reform virtually stopped with the election of the Howard Government, providing a higher sense of job security.  The (slow) casualisation of the workforce is unlikely to be a factor at all in this outcome, but you assume it to be central.</p>
<p>You make a similar error when noting that just under half of all employees &#8216;don&#8217;t worry about losing their job&#8217;.  This is statistically open to interpretation, and given the figures and the recent history of employment, it is probably more a statement regarding Australians and their propensity not to worry, rather than your interpretation that these people feel secure in their job.   Either way, a statisitcally inconclusive outcome appears to have been &#8217;spun&#8217;.     An alternative reading of those statistics is the scary proposition that more than half of all workers are worried about job security, and the really frightening thing is that regualr employees are just as uncertain in their employment future as casuals.</p>
<p>Then start to analyse that a lot of casual employment is undertaken by people who have no intention of having a &#8216;career&#8217; in that field and are just working their way through uni, acting, whatever, and they really don&#8217;t give two hoots about job security.</p>
<p>You are then left with the original statistics, which are interesting, your cherry picking a few which starts to look like damned statistics, and your analysis, which just looks like &#8217;spin&#8217;.</p>
<p>Nice try though.   A lot of people might buy it.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Elder</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Elder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-258</guid>
		<description>Job security? What's that?

Jobs tend to be insecure, and vulnerable to poor management. There was a time from the late 1940s to the early 1980s where government and other large organisations ran labour-intensive staffing policies that encouraged managers to shift troublesome employees sideways rather than punt them into the chill winds of unemployment. Not everyone in the workforce then enjoyed these conditions, but many did. That time has passed, and not only was Tanya P not in the workforce then, but it is notable that she is not explicitly promising the employees of Australia a return to the school-to-retirement job under a future Labor Government of which she may be part.

Is the position of a worker who is acutely aware that his/her ongoing employment, career and economic security depends on the employer's efficiency and market performance any less/more secure than that of a person blithely indifferent to such matters, who assumes that they will drift onward and upward without too much effort on their part?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Job security? What&#8217;s that?</p>
<p>Jobs tend to be insecure, and vulnerable to poor management. There was a time from the late 1940s to the early 1980s where government and other large organisations ran labour-intensive staffing policies that encouraged managers to shift troublesome employees sideways rather than punt them into the chill winds of unemployment. Not everyone in the workforce then enjoyed these conditions, but many did. That time has passed, and not only was Tanya P not in the workforce then, but it is notable that she is not explicitly promising the employees of Australia a return to the school-to-retirement job under a future Labor Government of which she may be part.</p>
<p>Is the position of a worker who is acutely aware that his/her ongoing employment, career and economic security depends on the employer&#8217;s efficiency and market performance any less/more secure than that of a person blithely indifferent to such matters, who assumes that they will drift onward and upward without too much effort on their part?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-257</guid>
		<description>David - Though it's never been illegal to sack people, and every recession has seen a spike in job losses regardless of IR system. In 1992, 6.4% of the workforce was retrenched (compared to 2.7% in 2004). It's no fun to be sacked, but a moot point as to whether the overall employment situation is made better or worse by added restraints on firing. Arguably, postponing hard decisions merely creates crises that threaten a company's viability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David - Though it&#8217;s never been illegal to sack people, and every recession has seen a spike in job losses regardless of IR system. In 1992, 6.4% of the workforce was retrenched (compared to 2.7% in 2004). It&#8217;s no fun to be sacked, but a moot point as to whether the overall employment situation is made better or worse by added restraints on firing. Arguably, postponing hard decisions merely creates crises that threaten a company&#8217;s viability.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 05:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-253</guid>
		<description>There's no effect yet.  The insidious nature of the casualisation of the workforce is such that when things are good (as they are now) people tend to be much more optimistic about the future (extrapolation from the immediate past).

Watch what happens when the economy tanks in a couple of years as the commodities boom busts.  The workforce law changes have been, pure and simple, crafted with an eye to making sure the big employers in Australia are allowed to quickly shunt off their workforces when things are tight.  Great for the employer, not so great if you just got shunted off.

All we really see now is the creation of marginal utility jobs that are much more tenuous than they currently appear.  Add to that the incredible reliance of the Australian population on social security payments (a trend accelerated by the conflicted and increasingly shifty federal government) and you have a double disaster in the making:  a population that can't survive by work alone with a government that can't afford to pay the welfare subsidies it has created.  The irony?  The welfare subsidies (family payments, childcare subsidies etc) exist because companies haven't created full time jobs that pay enough for a family to survive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s no effect yet.  The insidious nature of the casualisation of the workforce is such that when things are good (as they are now) people tend to be much more optimistic about the future (extrapolation from the immediate past).</p>
<p>Watch what happens when the economy tanks in a couple of years as the commodities boom busts.  The workforce law changes have been, pure and simple, crafted with an eye to making sure the big employers in Australia are allowed to quickly shunt off their workforces when things are tight.  Great for the employer, not so great if you just got shunted off.</p>
<p>All we really see now is the creation of marginal utility jobs that are much more tenuous than they currently appear.  Add to that the incredible reliance of the Australian population on social security payments (a trend accelerated by the conflicted and increasingly shifty federal government) and you have a double disaster in the making:  a population that can&#8217;t survive by work alone with a government that can&#8217;t afford to pay the welfare subsidies it has created.  The irony?  The welfare subsidies (family payments, childcare subsidies etc) exist because companies haven&#8217;t created full time jobs that pay enough for a family to survive.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Harrison</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 04:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-256</guid>
		<description>The constant quest for better ways to do things and produce more, which continually raises living standards, means we cannot go on with the same workers doing the same jobs. Job security policies help some existing workers, but at the expense of reducing the flexibility and efficiency of the economy as a whole, reducing living standards for all and inhibiting the creation of new jobs for other workers. Job security laws make it risky to hire new workers, leaving other workers unemployed. For the working population as a whole, there is no net increase in job security, it just concentrates insecurity on </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The constant quest for better ways to do things and produce more, which continually raises living standards, means we cannot go on with the same workers doing the same jobs. Job security policies help some existing workers, but at the expense of reducing the flexibility and efficiency of the economy as a whole, reducing living standards for all and inhibiting the creation of new jobs for other workers. Job security laws make it risky to hire new workers, leaving other workers unemployed. For the working population as a whole, there is no net increase in job security, it just concentrates insecurity on</p>
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		<title>By: crazybrave &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Work and security</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-255</link>
		<dc:creator>crazybrave &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Work and security</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-255</guid>
		<description>[...] Andrew Norton has a post up today about casualisation of the labour force, and how it might affect perceptions of work security [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Andrew Norton has a post up today about casualisation of the labour force, and how it might affect perceptions of work security [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/09/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/comment-page-1/#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/09/20/australias-surprisingly-secure-workers/#comment-254</guid>
		<description>Conrad - I expect WorkChoices would influence answers to questions about general trends in job security, since on that people would draw on what they have heard in the media. But my general analysis of these things suggests that where people can rely on their own experience they do that, so WorkChoices won't have much affect on questions about the respondent's own situation. On the other hand, as Rajat points out, all other things being equal WorkChoices should increase both hirings and firings - the big caveat being the 'all other things' will be far more influential than changes at the margins.

Rajat - I agree, there could be self-selection going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conrad - I expect WorkChoices would influence answers to questions about general trends in job security, since on that people would draw on what they have heard in the media. But my general analysis of these things suggests that where people can rely on their own experience they do that, so WorkChoices won&#8217;t have much affect on questions about the respondent&#8217;s own situation. On the other hand, as Rajat points out, all other things being equal WorkChoices should increase both hirings and firings - the big caveat being the &#8216;all other things&#8217; will be far more influential than changes at the margins.</p>
<p>Rajat - I agree, there could be self-selection going on.</p>
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