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	<title>Comments on: John Howard, conservative social democrat</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-704</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 10:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-704</guid>
		<description>Taking a point in your original comment about the political viability of future welfare cuts, Andrew.

It does make me curious that most people on the 'left' (I would count myself as being mildly in that direction - full disclosure ;) ) don't seem to recognise that the tough means-testing of the Hawke/Keating (maybe I should say Walsh/Howe) welfare state bred hostility to social transfers, while Howard's generous FTB programs have entrenched support for them.

He has handed us a great political victory... but many people on the left prefer to squawk about how FTB reflects his efforts to re-engineer Australian society and keep women in the home. That may be so, but I reckon it is a small price to pay for the greater victory the policy represents.

I suppose admitting that such a victory has been achieved would mean accepting Howard is not really an evil ideological ogre, which is probably pathologically impossible for Phil Adams and his readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking a point in your original comment about the political viability of future welfare cuts, Andrew.</p>
<p>It does make me curious that most people on the &#8216;left&#8217; (I would count myself as being mildly in that direction - full disclosure <img src='http://andrewnorton.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> ) don&#8217;t seem to recognise that the tough means-testing of the Hawke/Keating (maybe I should say Walsh/Howe) welfare state bred hostility to social transfers, while Howard&#8217;s generous FTB programs have entrenched support for them.</p>
<p>He has handed us a great political victory&#8230; but many people on the left prefer to squawk about how FTB reflects his efforts to re-engineer Australian society and keep women in the home. That may be so, but I reckon it is a small price to pay for the greater victory the policy represents.</p>
<p>I suppose admitting that such a victory has been achieved would mean accepting Howard is not really an evil ideological ogre, which is probably pathologically impossible for Phil Adams and his readers.</p>
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		<title>By: The rise and fall of social democracy &#171; Thoughts on Freedom</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-703</link>
		<dc:creator>The rise and fall of social democracy &#171; Thoughts on Freedom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-703</guid>
		<description>[...] I have long believed that we are living in an age of conservative social democracy where both major parties are roughly happy with our current size of government. It appears that this thesis is picking up supporters all over the shop &#8212; including Mark Bahnisch, Andrew Norton &#38; John Quiggin. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have long believed that we are living in an age of conservative social democracy where both major parties are roughly happy with our current size of government. It appears that this thesis is picking up supporters all over the shop &#8212; including Mark Bahnisch, Andrew Norton &amp; John Quiggin. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bahnisch</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-702</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bahnisch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-702</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/11/06/is-social-democracy-the-end-of-history/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Trackback&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/11/06/is-social-democracy-the-end-of-history/" rel="nofollow">Trackback</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-701</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 21:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-701</guid>
		<description>Leo - Sole parents generally have done well, but there is one group that has been switched from the sole parent benefit to the less generous unemployment benefit once their youngest kid reaches a certain age (sorry, I cannot recall what the age actually is).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leo - Sole parents generally have done well, but there is one group that has been switched from the sole parent benefit to the less generous unemployment benefit once their youngest kid reaches a certain age (sorry, I cannot recall what the age actually is).</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-700</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Nov 2006 07:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-700</guid>
		<description>Ahem. Realise this thread is apparently dead, but a relevant point was in the Oz today.

Ann Harding has apparently said that single parents are in fact one of the groups that has benefitted least under Howard. Part-pensioners are much bigger winners. Doesn't comment on the effects of his wide-ranging subsidies for 'self-funded' retirees.

Maybe we should take a cold shower about how 'generous' this government is to poor people with children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahem. Realise this thread is apparently dead, but a relevant point was in the Oz today.</p>
<p>Ann Harding has apparently said that single parents are in fact one of the groups that has benefitted least under Howard. Part-pensioners are much bigger winners. Doesn&#8217;t comment on the effects of his wide-ranging subsidies for &#8217;self-funded&#8217; retirees.</p>
<p>Maybe we should take a cold shower about how &#8216;generous&#8217; this government is to poor people with children.</p>
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		<title>By: backroom girl</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-699</link>
		<dc:creator>backroom girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-699</guid>
		<description>yes spog - I seem to have a talent for that</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes spog - I seem to have a talent for that</p>
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		<title>By: spog</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-679</link>
		<dc:creator>spog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-679</guid>
		<description>Gee, backroom girl, you seem to have stopped things in their tracks with that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, backroom girl, you seem to have stopped things in their tracks with that one.</p>
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		<title>By: backroom girl</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-698</link>
		<dc:creator>backroom girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 01:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-698</guid>
		<description>But Fred - whether you view the recent changes to welfare as creating losers depends entirely on how long a view you take.  Single parents who lose pension status and therefore receive less in income support are losers relative to what they (or a similar single parent) were getting in June 2006. But if you compare their financial position now to what it was in June 1996, taking account of the massive increases in family assistance (that, by the way, have benefited single parents even more than couple families), they are still well in front financially compared with the position when this government came to office.  From that perspective, you could regard the recent welfare changes as simply rolling back a little bit of the previous decade's relative largesse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Fred - whether you view the recent changes to welfare as creating losers depends entirely on how long a view you take.  Single parents who lose pension status and therefore receive less in income support are losers relative to what they (or a similar single parent) were getting in June 2006. But if you compare their financial position now to what it was in June 1996, taking account of the massive increases in family assistance (that, by the way, have benefited single parents even more than couple families), they are still well in front financially compared with the position when this government came to office.  From that perspective, you could regard the recent welfare changes as simply rolling back a little bit of the previous decade&#8217;s relative largesse.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-697</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-697</guid>
		<description>It is true that Howard has been madly redistributing to households with kids and in the process reducing childhood poverty. Full marks for that. But that's not the full story.

We all forget that until 2005, the Howard Government was constrained by the lack of a Senate majority. Remember his first GST proposal was much more regressive than the one which was ultimately forced on him by the Democrats. And now that he has Senate control he has introduced a set of workplace/welfare measures which (at least in the short term) will churn out some absolute (not just relative) losers and they will all be from the low end of the income spectrum. Howard has still to be tested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is true that Howard has been madly redistributing to households with kids and in the process reducing childhood poverty. Full marks for that. But that&#8217;s not the full story.</p>
<p>We all forget that until 2005, the Howard Government was constrained by the lack of a Senate majority. Remember his first GST proposal was much more regressive than the one which was ultimately forced on him by the Democrats. And now that he has Senate control he has introduced a set of workplace/welfare measures which (at least in the short term) will churn out some absolute (not just relative) losers and they will all be from the low end of the income spectrum. Howard has still to be tested.</p>
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		<title>By: backroom girl</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2006/10/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/comment-page-1/#comment-696</link>
		<dc:creator>backroom girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2006/10/12/john-howard-conservative-social-democrat/#comment-696</guid>
		<description>The thing that intrigues me in all of this is that I'm not sure how deliberately the Government set out on this course.  To some extent, I think it was pushed down the route of increasing the generosity of family assistance by the Labor party continually banging on about what a disgrace it is that ordinary working families have such high EMTRs (Wayne Swan has just come out with the latest annual instalment in this ongoing saga).

At the time that the Coalition came to power, family payments were withdrawn at the rate of 50 cents for each additional dollar of private income, resulting in EMTRs that could be higher than 80%.  (According to Labor, the 51.5% that an average earner now faces is way too high!)

In 2000, the Government revamped the system (largely as a political offset to the introduction of the GST), increasing the rates of payment and substantially liberalising the income test by increasing the income limit for maximum assistance and cutting the rate of withdrawal to 30 cents in the dollar.  This cut EMTRs by 20 percentage points but pushed the coverage of family tax benefit quite a long way up the income range.

Later increases in rates were through the invention of the end-of-year lump sum, which was a political fix to the problem of lots of people ending up with end-of-year debts, and that seems to have worked albeit at considerable expense.

It's not entirely clear to me, though, why we needed any further income test liberalisations except that I think John Howard prefers to spend any left-over money at the end of the budget process on family assistance rather than on anything else.  And while I know that most people see cash payments as welfare, not a tax offset, I think that John Howard (and possibly also Peter Costello) do genuinely conceptualise FTB as a part of the tax system that, for political and also practical reasons, is better delivered as a fortnightly cash payment.

The other thing that interests me is how difficult it is likely to be for any future government to be able to roll any of this back now that such a large proportion of the middle classes are getting part of this family payment expenditure.   Wayne Swan has intimated in recent days that the ALP has a plan to fix the high EMTRs but he hasn't come right out and said that they will do this by getting rid of middle class welfare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that intrigues me in all of this is that I&#8217;m not sure how deliberately the Government set out on this course.  To some extent, I think it was pushed down the route of increasing the generosity of family assistance by the Labor party continually banging on about what a disgrace it is that ordinary working families have such high EMTRs (Wayne Swan has just come out with the latest annual instalment in this ongoing saga).</p>
<p>At the time that the Coalition came to power, family payments were withdrawn at the rate of 50 cents for each additional dollar of private income, resulting in EMTRs that could be higher than 80%.  (According to Labor, the 51.5% that an average earner now faces is way too high!)</p>
<p>In 2000, the Government revamped the system (largely as a political offset to the introduction of the GST), increasing the rates of payment and substantially liberalising the income test by increasing the income limit for maximum assistance and cutting the rate of withdrawal to 30 cents in the dollar.  This cut EMTRs by 20 percentage points but pushed the coverage of family tax benefit quite a long way up the income range.</p>
<p>Later increases in rates were through the invention of the end-of-year lump sum, which was a political fix to the problem of lots of people ending up with end-of-year debts, and that seems to have worked albeit at considerable expense.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not entirely clear to me, though, why we needed any further income test liberalisations except that I think John Howard prefers to spend any left-over money at the end of the budget process on family assistance rather than on anything else.  And while I know that most people see cash payments as welfare, not a tax offset, I think that John Howard (and possibly also Peter Costello) do genuinely conceptualise FTB as a part of the tax system that, for political and also practical reasons, is better delivered as a fortnightly cash payment.</p>
<p>The other thing that interests me is how difficult it is likely to be for any future government to be able to roll any of this back now that such a large proportion of the middle classes are getting part of this family payment expenditure.   Wayne Swan has intimated in recent days that the ALP has a plan to fix the high EMTRs but he hasn&#8217;t come right out and said that they will do this by getting rid of middle class welfare.</p>
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