Comments on: The rise of a factoid http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/ Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:14:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Bannerman http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3894 Bannerman Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:55:49 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3894 a piece of paper doesn't mean you can do the job. It merely means you - supposedly - understand the theory. Between theory & practice lies a yawning chasm called experience. a piece of paper doesn’t mean you can do the job. It merely means you - supposedly - understand the theory. Between theory & practice lies a yawning chasm called experience.

]]> By: Rajat Sood http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3893 Rajat Sood Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:29:06 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3893 This is all just crazy isn't it? The last bastian of central planning - and in such a crucial sector. Instead of the stupid baby bonus, the government could just hand over a $20k cheque to every 18 year old in the country, to be used for study, training, travel, starting a business, buying a house or whatever, and let the market sort out the right number and type of graduates, apprentices, artists, etc. This is all just crazy isn’t it? The last bastian of central planning - and in such a crucial sector. Instead of the stupid baby bonus, the government could just hand over a $20k cheque to every 18 year old in the country, to be used for study, training, travel, starting a business, buying a house or whatever, and let the market sort out the right number and type of graduates, apprentices, artists, etc.

]]> By: Rafe http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3884 Rafe Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:51:28 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3884 Beware of the classification "manager", there are many people in jobs like "credit manager" or "complaints manager" which are simply clerical. Beware of the classification “manager”, there are many people in jobs like “credit manager” or “complaints manager” which are simply clerical.

]]> By: derrida derider http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3892 derrida derider Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:35:33 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3892 Leaving pedantry aside, like Sinclair I'm puzzled by the point of all this. Surely if most of the jobs we fill are skilled this is a Good Thing - it shows the labour force is becoming more skilled. Conversely, if most growth had been in unskilled jobs then people would be complaining about the concomitant low GDP growth, stagnant wage growth and a "low wage equilibrium". Don't forget employment growth requires growth in labour <i>supply</i> as well as demand. If most new jobs that are filled are for skilled people, this indicates there are more skilled people. Leaving pedantry aside, like Sinclair I’m puzzled by the point of all this. Surely if most of the jobs we fill are skilled this is a Good Thing - it shows the labour force is becoming more skilled. Conversely, if most growth had been in unskilled jobs then people would be complaining about the concomitant low GDP growth, stagnant wage growth and a “low wage equilibrium”.

Don’t forget employment growth requires growth in labour supply as well as demand. If most new jobs that are filled are for skilled people, this indicates there are more skilled people.

]]> By: Sinclair Davidson http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3891 Sinclair Davidson Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:14:55 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3891 This is a strange argument for the ALP to be running. I recall yesteryear they were arguing that the Howard government was generating (as if a government generates jobs) low-skilled part-time positions, now we hear the government is generating high-skilled positions. The Victorian state government is a bit silly on the uni entry numbers - there is nothing stopping them from investing any of the GST windfall money in HE places. This is a strange argument for the ALP to be running. I recall yesteryear they were arguing that the Howard government was generating (as if a government generates jobs) low-skilled part-time positions, now we hear the government is generating high-skilled positions.

The Victorian state government is a bit silly on the uni entry numbers - there is nothing stopping them from investing any of the GST windfall money in HE places.

]]> By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3890 conrad Mon, 15 Jan 2007 19:44:00 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3890 Given the average level of numeracy/literacy of the first year university students I see, I couldn't blame employers for using a degree as a screening process -- and actually, I can only see the problem of credentialism getting worse as the value of a 3 year degree declines, and I see this as pretty likely. I'm not sure what other people's experience is, but if an employer was to ask me what level of qualification people need so they could be assured of getting someone literature and numerate enough from a liberal arts course, then my answer would be someone with an honors degree -- we graduate heaps of 3rd years who still can't even write a small document properly -- and so the simple solution for employers trying to avoid these guys is to get people with 4 year degrees. Given the average level of numeracy/literacy of the first year university students I see, I couldn’t blame employers for using a degree as a screening process — and actually, I can only see the problem of credentialism getting worse as the value of a 3 year degree declines, and I see this as pretty likely.

I’m not sure what other people’s experience is, but if an employer was to ask me what level of qualification people need so they could be assured of getting someone literature and numerate enough from a liberal arts course, then my answer would be someone with an honors degree — we graduate heaps of 3rd years who still can’t even write a small document properly — and so the simple solution for employers trying to avoid these guys is to get people with 4 year degrees.

]]> By: Brett http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3883 Brett Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:37:05 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3883 It depends on the situation Stephen. Yes, if you are going for a more senior position, or one which requires a work history or <i> actually </i> requires a degree, then sure. Considering workplace expectations: If you expect, as a young person, to just walk into a high paying job, then yes, you'd better have a degree as a starting point. However, expecting to just walk into a medium to high paying job as a young'n isn't really very realistic. Plenty of people (myself included) started at the bottom and worked their way up, which is a perfectly valid strategy, and perfectly achieveable. And young people have a distinct advantage in the IT industry, where the increased computer literacy of that age group is a really positive trait. And if you can't make a squillion dollars in IT, with or without a degree, then theres something wrong... It depends on the situation Stephen. Yes, if you are going for a more senior position, or one which requires a work history or actually requires a degree, then sure.

Considering workplace expectations: If you expect, as a young person, to just walk into a high paying job, then yes, you’d better have a degree as a starting point.

However, expecting to just walk into a medium to high paying job as a young’n isn’t really very realistic. Plenty of people (myself included) started at the bottom and worked their way up, which is a perfectly valid strategy, and perfectly achieveable.

And young people have a distinct advantage in the IT industry, where the increased computer literacy of that age group is a really positive trait. And if you can’t make a squillion dollars in IT, with or without a degree, then theres something wrong…

]]> By: Stephen Hill http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3889 Stephen Hill Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:37:55 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3889 I think you'll find a lack of a degree can be a barrier for many young people entering the workforce, in that credentials are used as a way of screening candidates in the job application process. When there are quite a few applications, it is common that the person with the degree will be more competitive due to the significations of the qualifications, which can only be trumped with substanital experience (something most young people trying to get a foot in the door usually don't possess). Whether a degree is required or not can be immaterial if there is competition for jobs employers are going to establish some criteria that they think is going to get them the best candidate. I think you’ll find a lack of a degree can be a barrier for many young people entering the workforce, in that credentials are used as a way of screening candidates in the job application process. When there are quite a few applications, it is common that the person with the degree will be more competitive due to the significations of the qualifications, which can only be trumped with substanital experience (something most young people trying to get a foot in the door usually don’t possess). Whether a degree is required or not can be immaterial if there is competition for jobs employers are going to establish some criteria that they think is going to get them the best candidate.

]]> By: Brett http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3888 Brett Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:08:23 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3888 Statistics aside, people who are in the workforce know that a degree isn't everything, and in some instances is actually a hindrance. Just because a job is marked as <i>requiring </i>a degree doesn't mean that it's actually needed, or wanted. Statistics aside, people who are in the workforce know that a degree isn’t everything, and in some instances is actually a hindrance.

Just because a job is marked as requiring a degree doesn’t mean that it’s actually needed, or wanted.

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2007/01/the-rise-of-a-factoid/comment-page-1/#comment-3887 Andrew Norton Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:59:30 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/01/15/the-rise-of-a-factoid/#comment-3887 Russell -I don't recall seeing a breakdown by age, but I think it is reasonable to assume that given there are more credential barriers to young workers than there were to older workers when they entered the workforce that the balance will shift over time, though as the associate professional category is being abolished it will largely be seen in the 'professional' and 'managerial' numbers. In the associate professional category the proportion of graduates actually shrank between 1996 and 2006, because some small-scale managers were moved in and registered nurses moved out. Russell -I don’t recall seeing a breakdown by age, but I think it is reasonable to assume that given there are more credential barriers to young workers than there were to older workers when they entered the workforce that the balance will shift over time, though as the associate professional category is being abolished it will largely be seen in the ‘professional’ and ‘managerial’ numbers. In the associate professional category the proportion of graduates actually shrank between 1996 and 2006, because some small-scale managers were moved in and registered nurses moved out.

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