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	<title>Comments on: Why are private schools getting so many kids into uni?</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4828</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4828</guid>
		<description>I should say, Russell, that I wouldn't mind if more money went in to education and really bad schools had their management replaced by state education bureaucrats instead of allowing them to fail, so long as other reforms were introduced such as vouchers and greater principal responsibility and accountability. It's just that I believe having bureaucrats decide when management ought to be replaced is unlikely to work as well as a market-driven response, which is either have the parents make the decision to replace management or allow the school to close down so that children are forced to go elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should say, Russell, that I wouldn&#8217;t mind if more money went in to education and really bad schools had their management replaced by state education bureaucrats instead of allowing them to fail, so long as other reforms were introduced such as vouchers and greater principal responsibility and accountability. It&#8217;s just that I believe having bureaucrats decide when management ought to be replaced is unlikely to work as well as a market-driven response, which is either have the parents make the decision to replace management or allow the school to close down so that children are forced to go elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4827</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4827</guid>
		<description>Allowing schools to fail is the ultimate sanction, but what the US package does is impose other sanctions that basically attempt to mimic market forces. That is, penalise schools and remove administrators who perform poorly on the basis of publicised data, as well as enabling choice: "Schools that fail to show 'adequate yearly progress' face penalties. Parents of children at consistently failing schools must be allowed to move them to better ones."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allowing schools to fail is the ultimate sanction, but what the US package does is impose other sanctions that basically attempt to mimic market forces. That is, penalise schools and remove administrators who perform poorly on the basis of publicised data, as well as enabling choice: &#8220;Schools that fail to show &#8216;adequate yearly progress&#8217; face penalties. Parents of children at consistently failing schools must be allowed to move them to better ones.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4826</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4826</guid>
		<description>Rajat,  I don't think I misrepresented it at all - it doesn't matter that the quotes were 6 paragraphs apart, the point is that the package was apparently for rescuing schools, not allowing them to fail which was what you were advocating, and that the package involved more money, presumably some of which is spent to help those schools. Isn't that what you assumed from reading the article? So the description of the U.S. program was more like what I had been arguing for, and not what you had.

As for "people who read it know that it often editorialises in its stories" - well I don't read it, so I just evaluated the article as I found it - rubbish - a mixture of describing some existing US program, with unsupported proposals and claims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rajat,  I don&#8217;t think I misrepresented it at all - it doesn&#8217;t matter that the quotes were 6 paragraphs apart, the point is that the package was apparently for rescuing schools, not allowing them to fail which was what you were advocating, and that the package involved more money, presumably some of which is spent to help those schools. Isn&#8217;t that what you assumed from reading the article? So the description of the U.S. program was more like what I had been arguing for, and not what you had.</p>
<p>As for &#8220;people who read it know that it often editorialises in its stories&#8221; - well I don&#8217;t read it, so I just evaluated the article as I found it - rubbish - a mixture of describing some existing US program, with unsupported proposals and claims.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4825</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 03:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4825</guid>
		<description>Russell, you've misrepresented what the Economist said (not that I'm here to defend the Economist - people can read the article for themselves).

The article gives an example of how failing schools are 'rescued' by bringing in new management who have a mandate to restructure. The article goes on to say that the legislation does not go as far as allowing failing schools to close or teachers to be sacked, because the Democrats would block those measures. However, the article does suggest that greater management accountability for school performance, including publication of more data, penalties for under-performing schools, and the threat of management replacement, may have led to students performing better on certain tests.

As for more money, that was part of the overall package designed to win Democrat support, but the quote you've picked up on funding is 6 paragraphs below the quote on how schools are 'rescued'. So it is grossly misleading to suggest that the package works by unconditionally handing over extra cash to schools that are doing poorly.

On your last quip, the Economist describes itself as a newspaper, not an academic journal, and people who read it know that it often editorialises in its stories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell, you&#8217;ve misrepresented what the Economist said (not that I&#8217;m here to defend the Economist - people can read the article for themselves).</p>
<p>The article gives an example of how failing schools are &#8216;rescued&#8217; by bringing in new management who have a mandate to restructure. The article goes on to say that the legislation does not go as far as allowing failing schools to close or teachers to be sacked, because the Democrats would block those measures. However, the article does suggest that greater management accountability for school performance, including publication of more data, penalties for under-performing schools, and the threat of management replacement, may have led to students performing better on certain tests.</p>
<p>As for more money, that was part of the overall package designed to win Democrat support, but the quote you&#8217;ve picked up on funding is 6 paragraphs below the quote on how schools are &#8216;rescued&#8217;. So it is grossly misleading to suggest that the package works by unconditionally handing over extra cash to schools that are doing poorly.</p>
<p>On your last quip, the Economist describes itself as a newspaper, not an academic journal, and people who read it know that it often editorialises in its stories.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4824</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4824</guid>
		<description>Rajat,

I forced myself to read your Economist article. It doesn't report that failing schools are closed, on the contrary they are rescued: "The act's provisions for rescuing lousy schools have also done some good.... Democrats liked the extra money Mr Bush threw in to sweeten the deal" - are you suggesting extra money for failing schools?

The author proposes that "School funding could also be made dependent on how many parents choose to send their children to a particular school, so that good schools would expand and bad ones would close or be taken over." But doesn't explain, as you didn't, how this could work - where are all the extra places in the better performing schools? how long would it take to provide those places, and what happens in the meantime to the kids stuck in failing schools?

And it claims that "The toughest obstacle to improving the worst is the strident opposition of the teachers' unions to meritocracy." but doesn't offer any evidence. The article is rubbish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rajat,</p>
<p>I forced myself to read your Economist article. It doesn&#8217;t report that failing schools are closed, on the contrary they are rescued: &#8220;The act&#8217;s provisions for rescuing lousy schools have also done some good&#8230;. Democrats liked the extra money Mr Bush threw in to sweeten the deal&#8221; - are you suggesting extra money for failing schools?</p>
<p>The author proposes that &#8220;School funding could also be made dependent on how many parents choose to send their children to a particular school, so that good schools would expand and bad ones would close or be taken over.&#8221; But doesn&#8217;t explain, as you didn&#8217;t, how this could work - where are all the extra places in the better performing schools? how long would it take to provide those places, and what happens in the meantime to the kids stuck in failing schools?</p>
<p>And it claims that &#8220;The toughest obstacle to improving the worst is the strident opposition of the teachers&#8217; unions to meritocracy.&#8221; but doesn&#8217;t offer any evidence. The article is rubbish.</p>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4823</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4823</guid>
		<description>What David said.  Look, as even Harry Clarke (no lefty he) points out in the first comment on this thread, there are innumerable mechanisms by which we might be observing correlation, not causality, here and some good a priori reasons to expect this correlation.

And naturally more people are sending their kids to private schools these days - the government now subsidises it more heavily than they used to.   This says nothing about whether the increased subsidisation is either a Good Thing or a Bad Thing - I'm just making the point that its observed effect is going to be to increase the number of kids in private schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What David said.  Look, as even Harry Clarke (no lefty he) points out in the first comment on this thread, there are innumerable mechanisms by which we might be observing correlation, not causality, here and some good a priori reasons to expect this correlation.</p>
<p>And naturally more people are sending their kids to private schools these days - the government now subsidises it more heavily than they used to.   This says nothing about whether the increased subsidisation is either a Good Thing or a Bad Thing - I&#8217;m just making the point that its observed effect is going to be to increase the number of kids in private schools.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4822</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 05:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4822</guid>
		<description>This week's Economist ("What chance co-operation", 22 Feb) has an interesting article on the US "No child left behind" legislation introduced by Bush:

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8744594

It suggests that greater autonomy and accountability for school administrators could help improve student performance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This week&#8217;s Economist (&#8221;What chance co-operation&#8221;, 22 Feb) has an interesting article on the US &#8220;No child left behind&#8221; legislation introduced by Bush:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8744594" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8744594</a></p>
<p>It suggests that greater autonomy and accountability for school administrators could help improve student performance.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4821</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 05:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4821</guid>
		<description>Rajat Sood Says:
&lt;i&gt;
Well, David, whatever you think about what private schools provide, at least you have enjoyed the ability to make a choice. Don</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rajat Sood Says:<br />
<i><br />
Well, David, whatever you think about what private schools provide, at least you have enjoyed the ability to make a choice. Don</i></p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4820</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4820</guid>
		<description>Rajat - I'm only defending the status quo in that it sounds better than your alternative. Your suggestion that the no-hopers left behind in the failing schools might then be targetted for attention only raises the question - why can't they be targetted and helped long before then?

Because it won't be just "bad schools" that need attention. What about 2 or 3 bad teachers, or a bad principal, in an otherwise good school ? I think assessment, examiners and appropriate action would be better.

And given that you have to book years ahead to have a chance of getting into elite schools, where are you going to move your child to? Not long ago the was a really sensational story about the local high school on the front page of our local paper: girls giving boys oral sex, the usual drugs story etc. That may have prompted some parents to want to move their kids, but where to ? I don't imagine the schools with the better reputations (ie before the local paper get hold of a story about them) have lots of room for more kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rajat - I&#8217;m only defending the status quo in that it sounds better than your alternative. Your suggestion that the no-hopers left behind in the failing schools might then be targetted for attention only raises the question - why can&#8217;t they be targetted and helped long before then?</p>
<p>Because it won&#8217;t be just &#8220;bad schools&#8221; that need attention. What about 2 or 3 bad teachers, or a bad principal, in an otherwise good school ? I think assessment, examiners and appropriate action would be better.</p>
<p>And given that you have to book years ahead to have a chance of getting into elite schools, where are you going to move your child to? Not long ago the was a really sensational story about the local high school on the front page of our local paper: girls giving boys oral sex, the usual drugs story etc. That may have prompted some parents to want to move their kids, but where to ? I don&#8217;t imagine the schools with the better reputations (ie before the local paper get hold of a story about them) have lots of room for more kids.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/02/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/comment-page-1/#comment-4819</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/02/17/why-are-private-schools-getting-so-many-kids-into-uni/#comment-4819</guid>
		<description>Glad to know someone pays attention to what I write Parkos!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to know someone pays attention to what I write Parkos!</p>
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