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	<title>Comments on: Are private school parents discriminated against?</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5083</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 00:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5083</guid>
		<description>Yobbo - I wasn't saying the union should defend them - just that they do, and might be glad to see the back of them.

Look at it from the union's position - someone joins a union, if it turns out that they are fairly useless and their troubles take up a lot of union time, it's a bit difficult for the union to throw them out. Really it's up to the department to have a process (designed in consultation with the union) to decide whether they're competent to be teaching. Big unions are big bureaucracies, just like government departments, and they have their good and bad points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yobbo - I wasn&#8217;t saying the union should defend them - just that they do, and might be glad to see the back of them.</p>
<p>Look at it from the union&#8217;s position - someone joins a union, if it turns out that they are fairly useless and their troubles take up a lot of union time, it&#8217;s a bit difficult for the union to throw them out. Really it&#8217;s up to the department to have a process (designed in consultation with the union) to decide whether they&#8217;re competent to be teaching. Big unions are big bureaucracies, just like government departments, and they have their good and bad points.</p>
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		<title>By: Yobbo</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5082</link>
		<dc:creator>Yobbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5082</guid>
		<description>Russell: Why should the teacher's union spend any time or money defending incompetent teachers?

Should paying your union fees guarantee you a job irregardless of your competence?

The teacher's union should recognise that defending incompetent teachers is in the worst interests of the majority of their members.

But they don't, and that's why the teacher's union will always be a net negative on education outcomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell: Why should the teacher&#8217;s union spend any time or money defending incompetent teachers?</p>
<p>Should paying your union fees guarantee you a job irregardless of your competence?</p>
<p>The teacher&#8217;s union should recognise that defending incompetent teachers is in the worst interests of the majority of their members.</p>
<p>But they don&#8217;t, and that&#8217;s why the teacher&#8217;s union will always be a net negative on education outcomes.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5081</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 22:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5081</guid>
		<description>Thanks Andrew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Andrew.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5080</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 08:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5080</guid>
		<description>Fred - I have found Year 12 retention data by SES background over 1997-2005. The gap has widened in that period, mainly because of a 5 point gain by the top third, but also because of a 1 point decline in the bottom third.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred - I have found Year 12 retention data by SES background over 1997-2005. The gap has widened in that period, mainly because of a 5 point gain by the top third, but also because of a 1 point decline in the bottom third.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5079</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 00:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5079</guid>
		<description>"how do you intend to replace the lost teachers now already in shortage " - that is the fly in the ointment, the shortage of teachers. I guess larger class sizes isn't a goer - are there any incentives that could keep good teachers from retiring early, or leaving the profession ?

And teachers should be better paid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;how do you intend to replace the lost teachers now already in shortage &#8221; - that is the fly in the ointment, the shortage of teachers. I guess larger class sizes isn&#8217;t a goer - are there any incentives that could keep good teachers from retiring early, or leaving the profession ?</p>
<p>And teachers should be better paid.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5078</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 20:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5078</guid>
		<description>Russell &#38; Andrew E,

how do you intend to replace the lost teachers now already in shortage apart from

"Year 3: Government recruits top students into teaching on limited scholarships."

which I'll just assume isn't very like to do the job given that at least Andrew E has alrady reduced wages in Year 1, and the wages are already low for anyone with a degree in a shortage area. Given a low-wage, poor conditions scenario, the idea of removing teachers is also likely to cause a lot of political controversy. More importantly, it is also likely to scare the average 18 year old. Who is going to spend 3 years to learn how to do a low wage job with poor work conditions and perceived poor job security (and essentially untransferrable skills) unless there was likely to be some reward at the end (which there isn't for teaching) ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell &amp; Andrew E,</p>
<p>how do you intend to replace the lost teachers now already in shortage apart from</p>
<p>&#8220;Year 3: Government recruits top students into teaching on limited scholarships.&#8221;</p>
<p>which I&#8217;ll just assume isn&#8217;t very like to do the job given that at least Andrew E has alrady reduced wages in Year 1, and the wages are already low for anyone with a degree in a shortage area. Given a low-wage, poor conditions scenario, the idea of removing teachers is also likely to cause a lot of political controversy. More importantly, it is also likely to scare the average 18 year old. Who is going to spend 3 years to learn how to do a low wage job with poor work conditions and perceived poor job security (and essentially untransferrable skills) unless there was likely to be some reward at the end (which there isn&#8217;t for teaching) ?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5077</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5077</guid>
		<description>Fred - I don't know enough about trends in the socio-economic performance gap to know if the achievement gap has widened. It is large in &lt;a href="http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/7fa6c7bdd57f7bc0ca25703b0080ccc4!OpenDocument" rel="nofollow"&gt;absolute terms.&lt;a&gt; However, an &lt;a href="http://www.ozpisa.acer.edu.au/reports.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;ACER report&lt;/a&gt; found that between the 2000 and 2003 PISA studies on maths that socio-economic factors became less important here compared to the OECD average. But whether this is because Australia improved or other countries became worse they do not say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred - I don&#8217;t know enough about trends in the socio-economic performance gap to know if the achievement gap has widened. It is large in <a href="http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/7fa6c7bdd57f7bc0ca25703b0080ccc4!OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">absolute terms.</a><a> However, an </a><a href="http://www.ozpisa.acer.edu.au/reports.html" rel="nofollow">ACER report</a> found that between the 2000 and 2003 PISA studies on maths that socio-economic factors became less important here compared to the OECD average. But whether this is because Australia improved or other countries became worse they do not say.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5076</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 08:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5076</guid>
		<description>Andrew E - approached the right way, the teacher unions might agree to a fair method of removing incompetent teachers because the overwhelming majority of teachers resent the continuing employment of the incompetent, and because the unions  resent spending a disproportionate amount of time defending them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew E - approached the right way, the teacher unions might agree to a fair method of removing incompetent teachers because the overwhelming majority of teachers resent the continuing employment of the incompetent, and because the unions  resent spending a disproportionate amount of time defending them.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Elder</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5075</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Elder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 05:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5075</guid>
		<description>Another public policy justification is that your obligations to society extend beyond merely your offspring. If non-government schools have means of sourcing funding other than government subsidy, then good luck to them: their success at wrenching blood from stones would only be tarnished by installing the spigot of government funding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another public policy justification is that your obligations to society extend beyond merely your offspring. If non-government schools have means of sourcing funding other than government subsidy, then good luck to them: their success at wrenching blood from stones would only be tarnished by installing the spigot of government funding.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Elder</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/comment-page-1/#comment-5073</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Elder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/05/are-private-schools-discriminated-against/#comment-5073</guid>
		<description>Government schools are paid a premium to take children that non-government schools have the luxury of rejecting.

The public policy reason for commitment to state education is one of educational quality. Latin America, the Middle East and Ireland contain examples of poor educational outcomes when education is handed over entirely to religious authorities. Look at the conflict in the US over basic science education and know that it could happen here: state education keeps private education honest. It is the only bulwark against collusion in favour of educational quietism and against intellectual curiosity.

It is a mistake to refer to parents' religion as a motivator for choosing a religious school. Go to 90% of schools run by a religion/denomination and you will find students there from outside that religion/denomination. It also falls into the trap of assuming that those who fail to send their children to a school run by their professed religion/denomination are irreligious, that secularism is a figleaf (or a synonym) for atheism.

&lt;blockquote&gt;One way to make it less discriminatory would be to stick a means test on public schools&lt;/blockquote&gt;
There are numerous funding programs which do exactly that. The school I went to surveyed all parents' incomes in the hope of securing some extra funding, but because so few parents returned the completed survey the school missed out on the funding.

Per-capita subsidies are effectively a voucher system. Those whose mission it is to work the v-word into every blog thread everywhere must confront the possibility that it is not likely to work any better or worse than any other policy.

&lt;blockquote&gt;what parents are mostly concerned with is that their child will get the “bad” teacher, apparently everyone (teachers &#38; parents) knows who they are - a very small minority in most schools. So perhaps the most cost effective and do-able thing is to improve education in the state system would be to weed out those incompetent teachers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Most states have four-year terms. A sensible and politically feasible education reform program would go something like this:

Year 1: Government increases back-up resources and training for teachers, defers pay-rises.

Year 2: Government lays off teachers who have lost confidence of Minister - no marginal cases. Union outcry, selected examples leaked of teachers so incompetent it's a wonder they've lasted this long, wins PR battle comprehensively. Remaining teachers still have to work hard but are not covering up for incompetents.

Year 3: Government recruits top students into teaching on limited scholarships. Teachers unions struggling to get members to pay dues.

Year 4: Government seeks re-election with strong education policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Government schools are paid a premium to take children that non-government schools have the luxury of rejecting.</p>
<p>The public policy reason for commitment to state education is one of educational quality. Latin America, the Middle East and Ireland contain examples of poor educational outcomes when education is handed over entirely to religious authorities. Look at the conflict in the US over basic science education and know that it could happen here: state education keeps private education honest. It is the only bulwark against collusion in favour of educational quietism and against intellectual curiosity.</p>
<p>It is a mistake to refer to parents&#8217; religion as a motivator for choosing a religious school. Go to 90% of schools run by a religion/denomination and you will find students there from outside that religion/denomination. It also falls into the trap of assuming that those who fail to send their children to a school run by their professed religion/denomination are irreligious, that secularism is a figleaf (or a synonym) for atheism.</p>
<blockquote><p>One way to make it less discriminatory would be to stick a means test on public schools</p></blockquote>
<p>There are numerous funding programs which do exactly that. The school I went to surveyed all parents&#8217; incomes in the hope of securing some extra funding, but because so few parents returned the completed survey the school missed out on the funding.</p>
<p>Per-capita subsidies are effectively a voucher system. Those whose mission it is to work the v-word into every blog thread everywhere must confront the possibility that it is not likely to work any better or worse than any other policy.</p>
<blockquote><p>what parents are mostly concerned with is that their child will get the “bad” teacher, apparently everyone (teachers &amp; parents) knows who they are - a very small minority in most schools. So perhaps the most cost effective and do-able thing is to improve education in the state system would be to weed out those incompetent teachers.</p></blockquote>
<p>Most states have four-year terms. A sensible and politically feasible education reform program would go something like this:</p>
<p>Year 1: Government increases back-up resources and training for teachers, defers pay-rises.</p>
<p>Year 2: Government lays off teachers who have lost confidence of Minister - no marginal cases. Union outcry, selected examples leaked of teachers so incompetent it&#8217;s a wonder they&#8217;ve lasted this long, wins PR battle comprehensively. Remaining teachers still have to work hard but are not covering up for incompetents.</p>
<p>Year 3: Government recruits top students into teaching on limited scholarships. Teachers unions struggling to get members to pay dues.</p>
<p>Year 4: Government seeks re-election with strong education policy.</p>
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