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	<title>Comments on: Can too much education be bad for you?</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-2/#comment-6295</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 02:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6295</guid>
		<description>People they were dissatisfied with their jobs, they want to change their life....

That kind of "dissatisfied" is a force to change the world before and after.

That kind of "dissatisfied" is created by "education", called "persuit".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People they were dissatisfied with their jobs, they want to change their life&#8230;.</p>
<p>That kind of &#8220;dissatisfied&#8221; is a force to change the world before and after.</p>
<p>That kind of &#8220;dissatisfied&#8221; is created by &#8220;education&#8221;, called &#8220;persuit&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-2/#comment-6294</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2007 13:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6294</guid>
		<description>[...] doesn&#8217;t necessarily provide financial benefits, either. Andrew Norton gets the ball rolling here, Andrew Leigh responds here, while Andrew Norton has a further excellent contribution here. The [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] doesn&#8217;t necessarily provide financial benefits, either. Andrew Norton gets the ball rolling here, Andrew Leigh responds here, while Andrew Norton has a further excellent contribution here. The [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-2/#comment-6293</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 12:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6293</guid>
		<description>And your point is....?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And your point is&#8230;.?</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-2/#comment-6292</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6292</guid>
		<description>Rafe - your second paragraph doesn't make much sense - you are saying that non-education is bad for you. Well I think we all agree.

I wasn't recommending more spending so that people could be "educated in a useful way" (did you mean that to sound condescending?) More familiar with the best of their culture, yes. Doesn't it seem likely that if there are more opportunities to experience the best, some otherwise ignorant people will respond. At least it's true in my case - writers, dancers, music, artists that I wouldn't have been aware of but for the fact that they had subsidised exposure. Plus subdising the practitioners (by giving them jobs in universities for example) keeps the crafts and traditions alive and moving with the times. I don't want just a museum culture.

Brendan mentioned earlier that the aristocrats of Europe enjoyed their cultured lives at the expense of peasants who paid for it. Those aristocrats were cultured, weren't they ... surrounded by paintings, books, music, gardens, palaces - I just want to democratise the experience a little.

Rafe, you're over 50 ? Then here's a Billy Collins poem you might appreciate:

Forgetfulness


  The name of the author is the first to go
followed obediently by the title, the plot,
the heartbreaking conclusion, the entire novel
which suddenly becomes one you have never read,
never even heard of,

as if, one by one, the memories you used to harbor
decided to retire to the southern hemisphere of the brain,
to a little fishing village where there are no phones.

Long ago you kissed the names of the nine Muses goodbye
and watched the quadratic equation pack its bag,
and even now as you memorize the order of the planets,

something else is slipping away, a state flower perhaps,
the address of an uncle, the capital of Paraguay.

Whatever it is you are struggling to remember,
it is not poised on the tip of your tongue,
not even lurking in some obscure corner of your spleen.

It has floated away down a dark mythological river
whose name begins with an L as far as you can recall,
well on your own way to oblivion where you will join those
who have even forgotten how to swim and how to ride a bicycle.

No wonder you rise in the middle of the night
to look up the date of a famous battle in a book on war.
No wonder the moon in the window seems to have drifted
out of a love poem that you used to know by heart.

Billy Collins

and just to show that I'm not living entirely in the 19th century I will do a Jason Soon and offer you a link to Billy reading the poem on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrEPJh14mcU</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafe - your second paragraph doesn&#8217;t make much sense - you are saying that non-education is bad for you. Well I think we all agree.</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t recommending more spending so that people could be &#8220;educated in a useful way&#8221; (did you mean that to sound condescending?) More familiar with the best of their culture, yes. Doesn&#8217;t it seem likely that if there are more opportunities to experience the best, some otherwise ignorant people will respond. At least it&#8217;s true in my case - writers, dancers, music, artists that I wouldn&#8217;t have been aware of but for the fact that they had subsidised exposure. Plus subdising the practitioners (by giving them jobs in universities for example) keeps the crafts and traditions alive and moving with the times. I don&#8217;t want just a museum culture.</p>
<p>Brendan mentioned earlier that the aristocrats of Europe enjoyed their cultured lives at the expense of peasants who paid for it. Those aristocrats were cultured, weren&#8217;t they &#8230; surrounded by paintings, books, music, gardens, palaces - I just want to democratise the experience a little.</p>
<p>Rafe, you&#8217;re over 50 ? Then here&#8217;s a Billy Collins poem you might appreciate:</p>
<p>Forgetfulness</p>
<p>  The name of the author is the first to go<br />
followed obediently by the title, the plot,<br />
the heartbreaking conclusion, the entire novel<br />
which suddenly becomes one you have never read,<br />
never even heard of,</p>
<p>as if, one by one, the memories you used to harbor<br />
decided to retire to the southern hemisphere of the brain,<br />
to a little fishing village where there are no phones.</p>
<p>Long ago you kissed the names of the nine Muses goodbye<br />
and watched the quadratic equation pack its bag,<br />
and even now as you memorize the order of the planets,</p>
<p>something else is slipping away, a state flower perhaps,<br />
the address of an uncle, the capital of Paraguay.</p>
<p>Whatever it is you are struggling to remember,<br />
it is not poised on the tip of your tongue,<br />
not even lurking in some obscure corner of your spleen.</p>
<p>It has floated away down a dark mythological river<br />
whose name begins with an L as far as you can recall,<br />
well on your own way to oblivion where you will join those<br />
who have even forgotten how to swim and how to ride a bicycle.</p>
<p>No wonder you rise in the middle of the night<br />
to look up the date of a famous battle in a book on war.<br />
No wonder the moon in the window seems to have drifted<br />
out of a love poem that you used to know by heart.</p>
<p>Billy Collins</p>
<p>and just to show that I&#8217;m not living entirely in the 19th century I will do a Jason Soon and offer you a link to Billy reading the poem on youtube:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrEPJh14mcU" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrEPJh14mcU</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-6259</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 06:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6259</guid>
		<description>I don't know why Russell thinks that more public spending is going to make the people of Perth more cultured or even more educated in a useful way. You might like to check out what the public school system is doing to prepare children for learning and culture.

There is one way in which too much education is bad for you.  That is when you lob into some of the disciplines like sociology, parts of literature (semiology) and subjects that  have been radicalised or subjected to deconstructionism. The result of that kind of educational experience is to convert the docile and ambitious into mouthpieces for nonsense and to convince the others that the life of the mind is just a great wank.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know why Russell thinks that more public spending is going to make the people of Perth more cultured or even more educated in a useful way. You might like to check out what the public school system is doing to prepare children for learning and culture.</p>
<p>There is one way in which too much education is bad for you.  That is when you lob into some of the disciplines like sociology, parts of literature (semiology) and subjects that  have been radicalised or subjected to deconstructionism. The result of that kind of educational experience is to convert the docile and ambitious into mouthpieces for nonsense and to convince the others that the life of the mind is just a great wank.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Leigh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Overeducated Australian?</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-6291</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Leigh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Overeducated Australian?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6291</guid>
		<description>[...] Norton has been running some interesting posts on over-education. I don&#8217;t doubt that some people acquire more education than they need [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Norton has been running some interesting posts on over-education. I don&#8217;t doubt that some people acquire more education than they need [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Halfweeg</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-6290</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Halfweeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6290</guid>
		<description>And who the hell is Bill Collins, how many Americans could name their poet laureate?

If people didn't want to watch Shakespeare he would be as well known as his fellow playwrights of the same era, who were arguably more popular than him when they were all competing for the same audience.  Fortunately for us, people born before us had good taste, and kept the Bard's works alive.  It may be of scholarly interest to discover a lost Shakespearean play, but it is lost because both the artist and his patrons did not find it as important and valuable as his other works.

So playwrights and poets have gone out of fashion, but film directors and songwriters are in fashion.  Are you saying that Banjo Patterson tells Australian life at the end of the 19th century more well than a songwriter and performer like Paul Kelly in recent times?  Is the work of Peter Weir less culturally valuable than David Williamson?  You are making value decisions based on your personal preferences and wanting to impose those decisions on others.

Good art does not need to be subsidised.  Your belief that people won't recognise high art is condescending and paternalistic.  You clearly have no faith in the very art you value to convey its own meaning, but rather would rely on experts to dictate to the general public their importance.

The value of experts is not to give them dominion over our cultural lives, but to listen to them, look at the art in question, and make up our own minds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And who the hell is Bill Collins, how many Americans could name their poet laureate?</p>
<p>If people didn&#8217;t want to watch Shakespeare he would be as well known as his fellow playwrights of the same era, who were arguably more popular than him when they were all competing for the same audience.  Fortunately for us, people born before us had good taste, and kept the Bard&#8217;s works alive.  It may be of scholarly interest to discover a lost Shakespearean play, but it is lost because both the artist and his patrons did not find it as important and valuable as his other works.</p>
<p>So playwrights and poets have gone out of fashion, but film directors and songwriters are in fashion.  Are you saying that Banjo Patterson tells Australian life at the end of the 19th century more well than a songwriter and performer like Paul Kelly in recent times?  Is the work of Peter Weir less culturally valuable than David Williamson?  You are making value decisions based on your personal preferences and wanting to impose those decisions on others.</p>
<p>Good art does not need to be subsidised.  Your belief that people won&#8217;t recognise high art is condescending and paternalistic.  You clearly have no faith in the very art you value to convey its own meaning, but rather would rely on experts to dictate to the general public their importance.</p>
<p>The value of experts is not to give them dominion over our cultural lives, but to listen to them, look at the art in question, and make up our own minds.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-6289</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6289</guid>
		<description>Here's another good Billy Collins poem:


Introduction To Poetry


  I ask them to take a poem
and hold it up to the light
like a color slide

or press an ear against its hive.

I say drop a mouse into a poem
and watch him probe his way out,

or walk inside the poem's room
and feel the walls for a light switch.

I want them to waterski
across the surface of a poem
waving at the author's name on the shore.

But all they want to do
is tie the poem to a chair with rope
and torture a confession out of it.

They begin beating it with a hose
to find out what it really means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s another good Billy Collins poem:</p>
<p>Introduction To Poetry</p>
<p>  I ask them to take a poem<br />
and hold it up to the light<br />
like a color slide</p>
<p>or press an ear against its hive.</p>
<p>I say drop a mouse into a poem<br />
and watch him probe his way out,</p>
<p>or walk inside the poem&#8217;s room<br />
and feel the walls for a light switch.</p>
<p>I want them to waterski<br />
across the surface of a poem<br />
waving at the author&#8217;s name on the shore.</p>
<p>But all they want to do<br />
is tie the poem to a chair with rope<br />
and torture a confession out of it.</p>
<p>They begin beating it with a hose<br />
to find out what it really means.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-6288</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 07:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6288</guid>
		<description>"you still are not acknowledging the fact that we revere Shakespeare over playwrights like Spenser or Sidney (who were arguable more popular during their lifetimes) is because the quality of Shakespeare’s work was commercially viable long after the man was dead"

No, don't acknowkedge it, because that's not why we revere Shakespeare.

"you advocate experts telling us what is culturally valuable "

Who would you take advice from if not an expert?

"For every great public building there are many more monstrosities that people live to curse"

An argument for demanding better buildings.

"the works of Patterson and Lawson"

Gawd - they were some time ago Brendan. How many Australians could name one living Australian poet? Whereas if you have poets in public positions you become aware of them - many you won't like, but some you will. A couple of years ago Billy Collins was poet laureate in the U.S. Here's a Billy Collins poem:


Embrace


  You know the parlor trick.
wrap your arms around your own body
and from the back it looks like
someone is embracing you
her hands grasping your shirt
her fingernails teasing your neck
from the front it is another story
you never looked so alone
your crossed elbows and screwy grin
you could be waiting for a tailor
to fit you with a straight jacket
one that would hold you really tight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;you still are not acknowledging the fact that we revere Shakespeare over playwrights like Spenser or Sidney (who were arguable more popular during their lifetimes) is because the quality of Shakespeare’s work was commercially viable long after the man was dead&#8221;</p>
<p>No, don&#8217;t acknowkedge it, because that&#8217;s not why we revere Shakespeare.</p>
<p>&#8220;you advocate experts telling us what is culturally valuable &#8221;</p>
<p>Who would you take advice from if not an expert?</p>
<p>&#8220;For every great public building there are many more monstrosities that people live to curse&#8221;</p>
<p>An argument for demanding better buildings.</p>
<p>&#8220;the works of Patterson and Lawson&#8221;</p>
<p>Gawd - they were some time ago Brendan. How many Australians could name one living Australian poet? Whereas if you have poets in public positions you become aware of them - many you won&#8217;t like, but some you will. A couple of years ago Billy Collins was poet laureate in the U.S. Here&#8217;s a Billy Collins poem:</p>
<p>Embrace</p>
<p>  You know the parlor trick.<br />
wrap your arms around your own body<br />
and from the back it looks like<br />
someone is embracing you<br />
her hands grasping your shirt<br />
her fingernails teasing your neck<br />
from the front it is another story<br />
you never looked so alone<br />
your crossed elbows and screwy grin<br />
you could be waiting for a tailor<br />
to fit you with a straight jacket<br />
one that would hold you really tight.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Halfweeg</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/comment-page-1/#comment-6243</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Halfweeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 06:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/27/can-too-much-education-be-bad-for-you/#comment-6243</guid>
		<description>Russell, I understand your point, but you still are not acknowledging the fact that we revere Shakespeare over playwrights like Spenser or Sidney (who were arguable more popular during their lifetimes) is because the quality of Shakespeare's work was commercially viable long after the man was dead.  It is the same with buildings, older, historical buildings that please the eye gain in market value and survive, ugly buildings get replaced.
Scholarly works may not have strictly "popular" cultural market value, but they still have a market value in the sense that someone who values them are prepared to preserve them without financial gain.  You'll find no criticism from me of individuals and charities that voluntarily develop cultural institutions and preserve cultural artifacts, they are excercising free will.  The fact that they would like me to enjoy/value what they enjoy/value is neither here no there.
On the other hand, you advocate experts telling us what is culturally valuable and forcing us to subsidise it.  For every great public building there are many more monstrosities that people live to curse, but they were forced to pay for both through taxation.
As for poet laureates, Australia needed no government backing to revere the works of Patterson and Lawson, and neither did Nick Cave need a grant to become a moving songwriter.  Using the state to promote national culture is a form of propaganda, and I have no more support for it philosophically than I do for the Australian Institute of Sport or for subsidised stadia that dot our cities.  If you think Australian culture can't get any better than the songs sung by Kylie Minogue, you sir have a good dose of cultural cringe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell, I understand your point, but you still are not acknowledging the fact that we revere Shakespeare over playwrights like Spenser or Sidney (who were arguable more popular during their lifetimes) is because the quality of Shakespeare&#8217;s work was commercially viable long after the man was dead.  It is the same with buildings, older, historical buildings that please the eye gain in market value and survive, ugly buildings get replaced.<br />
Scholarly works may not have strictly &#8220;popular&#8221; cultural market value, but they still have a market value in the sense that someone who values them are prepared to preserve them without financial gain.  You&#8217;ll find no criticism from me of individuals and charities that voluntarily develop cultural institutions and preserve cultural artifacts, they are excercising free will.  The fact that they would like me to enjoy/value what they enjoy/value is neither here no there.<br />
On the other hand, you advocate experts telling us what is culturally valuable and forcing us to subsidise it.  For every great public building there are many more monstrosities that people live to curse, but they were forced to pay for both through taxation.<br />
As for poet laureates, Australia needed no government backing to revere the works of Patterson and Lawson, and neither did Nick Cave need a grant to become a moving songwriter.  Using the state to promote national culture is a form of propaganda, and I have no more support for it philosophically than I do for the Australian Institute of Sport or for subsidised stadia that dot our cities.  If you think Australian culture can&#8217;t get any better than the songs sung by Kylie Minogue, you sir have a good dose of cultural cringe.</p>
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