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	<title>Comments on: To whom does the mud stick?</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5252</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2007 05:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5252</guid>
		<description>Thankyou Fred.  I think we'll have to 'agree to disagree' on a couple of points, although I agree with you that the government's initial questioning of Rudd's meetings with Burke were legitimate.

I don't think that the charges of being 'indebted to Burke' and 'morally compromised' were mudslinging. I think that just passes for the usual political hyperbole, and it could have been quickly dismissed if Rudd had just played a straight bat and been candid. As I tried to demonstrate yesterday, Rudd's lack of candour makes the whole affair look fishy, and gives the government ammunition.

Regarding Rudd's childhood, we must bear in mind that, by accusing a man, now dead, of having once summarily evicted his family, Rudd himself was 'throwing mud'. The man's family aren't happy and the newspapers have reported that they are considering legal action. It may be unpleasant for the government to investigate his claims, but it is equally unpleasant for Rudd to have made the accusation in the first place - especially when Rudd's recollection of the event is disputed.

What is worse - to be accused of mis-remembering an episode from your childhood, or to be accused of evicting a penniless widow and her three kids shortly after she has buried her husband?? To my mind, the charge against Rudd is much the lighter, and the charge that he is making much the heavier - and 'muddier'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thankyou Fred.  I think we&#8217;ll have to &#8216;agree to disagree&#8217; on a couple of points, although I agree with you that the government&#8217;s initial questioning of Rudd&#8217;s meetings with Burke were legitimate.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that the charges of being &#8216;indebted to Burke&#8217; and &#8216;morally compromised&#8217; were mudslinging. I think that just passes for the usual political hyperbole, and it could have been quickly dismissed if Rudd had just played a straight bat and been candid. As I tried to demonstrate yesterday, Rudd&#8217;s lack of candour makes the whole affair look fishy, and gives the government ammunition.</p>
<p>Regarding Rudd&#8217;s childhood, we must bear in mind that, by accusing a man, now dead, of having once summarily evicted his family, Rudd himself was &#8216;throwing mud&#8217;. The man&#8217;s family aren&#8217;t happy and the newspapers have reported that they are considering legal action. It may be unpleasant for the government to investigate his claims, but it is equally unpleasant for Rudd to have made the accusation in the first place - especially when Rudd&#8217;s recollection of the event is disputed.</p>
<p>What is worse - to be accused of mis-remembering an episode from your childhood, or to be accused of evicting a penniless widow and her three kids shortly after she has buried her husband?? To my mind, the charge against Rudd is much the lighter, and the charge that he is making much the heavier - and &#8216;muddier&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5251</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5251</guid>
		<description>You raise an interesting question Jeremy - when is it mudslinging and when is it legitimate questioning? We all will have our views on this. Here's mine (as far as recent events are concerned).

I agree Jeremy that it was perfectly legitimate for the Government to question his meetings with Burke. Rudd was unwise and showed poor judgment. That was not "mud-slinging" by the Government.

But Government Ministers including the Prime Minister went two steps further.
1. They charged Rudd with being "indebted to Burke" and "morally compromised" without any evidence to back it up.
2. They then disputed his childhood recollections on the detail and drew conclusions about his truthfulness and honesty.

These two cases involved mud-slinging in my opinion.

As to the Australian Nuclear Energy affair, I rather agree with today's correspondent in the Australian, She says "Voters are smart enough to distinguish between muckraking about Rudd's childhood experiences and the legitimate scrutiny of the Government's relationship with an energy company that could benefit from government policy".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You raise an interesting question Jeremy - when is it mudslinging and when is it legitimate questioning? We all will have our views on this. Here&#8217;s mine (as far as recent events are concerned).</p>
<p>I agree Jeremy that it was perfectly legitimate for the Government to question his meetings with Burke. Rudd was unwise and showed poor judgment. That was not &#8220;mud-slinging&#8221; by the Government.</p>
<p>But Government Ministers including the Prime Minister went two steps further.<br />
1. They charged Rudd with being &#8220;indebted to Burke&#8221; and &#8220;morally compromised&#8221; without any evidence to back it up.<br />
2. They then disputed his childhood recollections on the detail and drew conclusions about his truthfulness and honesty.</p>
<p>These two cases involved mud-slinging in my opinion.</p>
<p>As to the Australian Nuclear Energy affair, I rather agree with today&#8217;s correspondent in the Australian, She says &#8220;Voters are smart enough to distinguish between muckraking about Rudd&#8217;s childhood experiences and the legitimate scrutiny of the Government&#8217;s relationship with an energy company that could benefit from government policy&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5254</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5254</guid>
		<description>[...] favourites (and they&#8217;ve tended in recent years to be more accurate than the pollsters). Andrew Norton, on the other hand, assesses that Howard&#8217;s Brian Burke blitzkreig on Kevie may have damaged [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] favourites (and they&#8217;ve tended in recent years to be more accurate than the pollsters). Andrew Norton, on the other hand, assesses that Howard&#8217;s Brian Burke blitzkreig on Kevie may have damaged [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5250</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5250</guid>
		<description>(Lengthy reply, sorry)

Fred,

Thanks for replying to my question. I think you're being a bit too cute, in saying that Rudd couldn't be sure what others were discussing at the dinner table. As it turns out, Burke organised the dinner to allow invitees to meet Rudd. Rudd was the guest star!

You're a public figure of some note, Fred - how many dinners have you attended, at the behest of someone else, only to discover that you were the guest of honour? None, I suspect.

As for Rudd's lack of candour, bear in mind the above fact while reading Rudd's initial explanation of his attendance, given in a press conference on 1 March:

'And the third was a dinner at a restaurant to which Graham and been invited and I was invited by Graham in turn. At the restaurant in question, my recollection is about 20 or 30 people were there and there was a general discussion around the table.'

No mention of the fact that he was the main attraction - he only told the press that he was a guest of another invitee. That's a bit of a gap, wouldn't you agree?

When the journos asked him on 4 March whether or not he knew that he would be the guest of honour at the dinner arranged by Burke, he each time dodged the question and tried to shift the discussion by calling on the PM to call an election.

On 5 March Kerry O'Brien asked Rudd about a phone call between he and Burke, which hadn't been mentioned by Rudd before. Also on 5 March, the 'general discussion' at the dinner was revealed to have involved an 'extensive Q&#38;A' session.

And also on 5 March, Rudd said that a dinner had been organised by Brian Burke, Edwards was invited, and Edwards invited Rudd to 'come along'. A bit strange - Burke organises a dinner, with Rudd as guest star, but leaves it to Edwards to say to Rudd only: 'I'm going to a dinner, would you like to come along?'

The fact that the story has kept developing indicates, to me anyway, a lack of candour on Rudd's part.

(BTW, all of the above information has come from Rudd's statements to the press.)

As for your other comment, Fred, you are right - the association of the PM with a crim porn star is ridiculous! But the porn star hadn't organised the dinner, had he (she)? Nor had he/she been involved in shenanigans in the WA parliament, I suppose? There is something of a difference, to my eyes.

David, thanks too for your reply.

Now, can one of this blog's intellectual lights help me find the line between legitimate questioning of a public figure's activities, and chucking mud at that public figure?? Maybe we can use an example - was Rudd's questioning of the PM's and the Treasurer's and the Industry Minister's meetings with Ron Walker, as a rep of Australian Nuclear Energy, legitimate - or was it 'mudslinging' too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Lengthy reply, sorry)</p>
<p>Fred,</p>
<p>Thanks for replying to my question. I think you&#8217;re being a bit too cute, in saying that Rudd couldn&#8217;t be sure what others were discussing at the dinner table. As it turns out, Burke organised the dinner to allow invitees to meet Rudd. Rudd was the guest star!</p>
<p>You&#8217;re a public figure of some note, Fred - how many dinners have you attended, at the behest of someone else, only to discover that you were the guest of honour? None, I suspect.</p>
<p>As for Rudd&#8217;s lack of candour, bear in mind the above fact while reading Rudd&#8217;s initial explanation of his attendance, given in a press conference on 1 March:</p>
<p>&#8216;And the third was a dinner at a restaurant to which Graham and been invited and I was invited by Graham in turn. At the restaurant in question, my recollection is about 20 or 30 people were there and there was a general discussion around the table.&#8217;</p>
<p>No mention of the fact that he was the main attraction - he only told the press that he was a guest of another invitee. That&#8217;s a bit of a gap, wouldn&#8217;t you agree?</p>
<p>When the journos asked him on 4 March whether or not he knew that he would be the guest of honour at the dinner arranged by Burke, he each time dodged the question and tried to shift the discussion by calling on the PM to call an election.</p>
<p>On 5 March Kerry O&#8217;Brien asked Rudd about a phone call between he and Burke, which hadn&#8217;t been mentioned by Rudd before. Also on 5 March, the &#8216;general discussion&#8217; at the dinner was revealed to have involved an &#8216;extensive Q&amp;A&#8217; session.</p>
<p>And also on 5 March, Rudd said that a dinner had been organised by Brian Burke, Edwards was invited, and Edwards invited Rudd to &#8216;come along&#8217;. A bit strange - Burke organises a dinner, with Rudd as guest star, but leaves it to Edwards to say to Rudd only: &#8216;I&#8217;m going to a dinner, would you like to come along?&#8217;</p>
<p>The fact that the story has kept developing indicates, to me anyway, a lack of candour on Rudd&#8217;s part.</p>
<p>(BTW, all of the above information has come from Rudd&#8217;s statements to the press.)</p>
<p>As for your other comment, Fred, you are right - the association of the PM with a crim porn star is ridiculous! But the porn star hadn&#8217;t organised the dinner, had he (she)? Nor had he/she been involved in shenanigans in the WA parliament, I suppose? There is something of a difference, to my eyes.</p>
<p>David, thanks too for your reply.</p>
<p>Now, can one of this blog&#8217;s intellectual lights help me find the line between legitimate questioning of a public figure&#8217;s activities, and chucking mud at that public figure?? Maybe we can use an example - was Rudd&#8217;s questioning of the PM&#8217;s and the Treasurer&#8217;s and the Industry Minister&#8217;s meetings with Ron Walker, as a rep of Australian Nuclear Energy, legitimate - or was it &#8216;mudslinging&#8217; too?</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5253</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5253</guid>
		<description>I notice the Brisbane Courier Mail has a story that Howard hosted or attended a fund-raising dinner where one of the guests was a  criminal porn star. So what? This is again a case of ridiculous guilt by association!.  I am sorry to see Swan jump in to attack Howard on this trivial issue.  Labor will be losing the moral high ground on mud-slinging if they do that too 0ften!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice the Brisbane Courier Mail has a story that Howard hosted or attended a fund-raising dinner where one of the guests was a  criminal porn star. So what? This is again a case of ridiculous guilt by association!.  I am sorry to see Swan jump in to attack Howard on this trivial issue.  Labor will be losing the moral high ground on mud-slinging if they do that too 0ften!</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5249</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5249</guid>
		<description>Andrew, today's SMH has seven or eight letters on the Abbott article and they are all hostile. This backs your view that Abbott's article was ill-judged. But that's a short term effect. Who knows what the longer term effect will be?

Jeremy, I think it is a bit unfair to say that Rudd showed "lack of candour" on his meetings and phone calls. What are you referring to here? In my view, guilt by association is the hardest thing in the world to refute and Rudd has been as transparent as he could be, given that he could not be sure what others were discussing at the dinner table. I agree that he has seemed very nervous when questioned about the incident. But that is understandable as the charge of being "indebted" to Burke was so serious that he risked extinction over it. Nervousness is not evidence of lack of candour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, today&#8217;s SMH has seven or eight letters on the Abbott article and they are all hostile. This backs your view that Abbott&#8217;s article was ill-judged. But that&#8217;s a short term effect. Who knows what the longer term effect will be?</p>
<p>Jeremy, I think it is a bit unfair to say that Rudd showed &#8220;lack of candour&#8221; on his meetings and phone calls. What are you referring to here? In my view, guilt by association is the hardest thing in the world to refute and Rudd has been as transparent as he could be, given that he could not be sure what others were discussing at the dinner table. I agree that he has seemed very nervous when questioned about the incident. But that is understandable as the charge of being &#8220;indebted&#8221; to Burke was so serious that he risked extinction over it. Nervousness is not evidence of lack of candour.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5248</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5248</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,
I think the whole exercise was perfectly legitimate - but hilariously poorly executed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,<br />
I think the whole exercise was perfectly legitimate - but hilariously poorly executed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5247</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5247</guid>
		<description>When does questioning a person's actions stop being legitimate and become 'mudslinging'?

Given the shenanigans that Burke has been involved in over in WA, and especially given Rudd's lack of candour about his meetings and phone calls with Burke, don't you think that this issue is a legitimate matter of public interest?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When does questioning a person&#8217;s actions stop being legitimate and become &#8216;mudslinging&#8217;?</p>
<p>Given the shenanigans that Burke has been involved in over in WA, and especially given Rudd&#8217;s lack of candour about his meetings and phone calls with Burke, don&#8217;t you think that this issue is a legitimate matter of public interest?</p>
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		<title>By: David Rubie</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5246</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rubie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 05:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5246</guid>
		<description>Have a look at what Andrew Robb said at the national press club today:
&lt;i&gt;Mr Robb said today the government's relentless focus on Mr Rudd's relationship with disgraced former West Australian premier Brian Burke was a tactic in assessing the Labor leader's fitness to be prime minister.&lt;/i&gt; (as quoted in the Age).

See?  It isn't mud slinging, the Liberals are doing us a favour.

They must realise that this tactic isn't working when they have to publically defend it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have a look at what Andrew Robb said at the national press club today:<br />
<i>Mr Robb said today the government&#8217;s relentless focus on Mr Rudd&#8217;s relationship with disgraced former West Australian premier Brian Burke was a tactic in assessing the Labor leader&#8217;s fitness to be prime minister.</i> (as quoted in the Age).</p>
<p>See?  It isn&#8217;t mud slinging, the Liberals are doing us a favour.</p>
<p>They must realise that this tactic isn&#8217;t working when they have to publically defend it.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/03/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/comment-page-1/#comment-5244</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 22:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/03/12/to-whom-does-the-mud-stick/#comment-5244</guid>
		<description>Fred - No, they are not fools, but that does not mean that they have the right strategy. Abbott's piece this morning did not say anything new, it was just trying to explain why the government is behaving as it is. But putting it all together and assuming Abbott's rather than Rudd's version is correct it still doesn't amount to very much, so I think there is a danger the government will look petty and vindictive without doing Rudd much harm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred - No, they are not fools, but that does not mean that they have the right strategy. Abbott&#8217;s piece this morning did not say anything new, it was just trying to explain why the government is behaving as it is. But putting it all together and assuming Abbott&#8217;s rather than Rudd&#8217;s version is correct it still doesn&#8217;t amount to very much, so I think there is a danger the government will look petty and vindictive without doing Rudd much harm.</p>
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