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	<title>Comments on: Labor and same-sex relationships</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Sacha Blumen</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6948</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha Blumen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 May 2007 04:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6948</guid>
		<description>What Joe de Bruyn's (and Senator Helen Polley's) speeches show is that there's a huge range of views in the ALP on all sorts of topics. For some reason, "marriage" seems to be an emotional lightning rod.

It is clear that the coalition's bill before the last election restating that marriage was between a man and a woman, while having no practical effect on who could get married, was a signal to social conservatives that the coalition held similarly social conservative values. I bet that the federal government's dragging feet response to Warren Entsch's "bill" to remove distinctions in commonwealth legislation between heterosexual and homosexual relationships (apart from marriage) is about appealing (or not being unappealing) to socially conservative voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Joe de Bruyn&#8217;s (and Senator Helen Polley&#8217;s) speeches show is that there&#8217;s a huge range of views in the ALP on all sorts of topics. For some reason, &#8220;marriage&#8221; seems to be an emotional lightning rod.</p>
<p>It is clear that the coalition&#8217;s bill before the last election restating that marriage was between a man and a woman, while having no practical effect on who could get married, was a signal to social conservatives that the coalition held similarly social conservative values. I bet that the federal government&#8217;s dragging feet response to Warren Entsch&#8217;s &#8220;bill&#8221; to remove distinctions in commonwealth legislation between heterosexual and homosexual relationships (apart from marriage) is about appealing (or not being unappealing) to socially conservative voters.</p>
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		<title>By: spog</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6967</link>
		<dc:creator>spog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 04:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6967</guid>
		<description>Steve,

I think it's pretty fair to say that being in a recognised heterosexual relationship only confers penalties for Social Security Act purposes.  The only benefit that springs to mind is bereavement payments, but given that one of you has to die to get it, I'm not much moved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty fair to say that being in a recognised heterosexual relationship only confers penalties for Social Security Act purposes.  The only benefit that springs to mind is bereavement payments, but given that one of you has to die to get it, I&#8217;m not much moved.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Leigh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Shop assistants for civility</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6947</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Leigh &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Shop assistants for civility</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 04:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6947</guid>
		<description>[...] At the ALP conference last weekend, de Bruyn expressed his firm opposition to civil unions. Andrew Norton does a neat exercise on his blog today. Using the 2005 Australian Survey of Social Attitudes, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] At the ALP conference last weekend, de Bruyn expressed his firm opposition to civil unions. Andrew Norton does a neat exercise on his blog today. Using the 2005 Australian Survey of Social Attitudes, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sinclair Davidson</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6966</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinclair Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 02:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6966</guid>
		<description>Adam Smith is very definitely 18 century. Mind you the twentieth had Hayek. Not being Catholic allowed me to avoid Catholic (explicit) teaching, those who were had to endure the 1960s Vatican Two document. Of course by South African standards the Christian Brothers were considered enlighted progressives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam Smith is very definitely 18 century. Mind you the twentieth had Hayek. Not being Catholic allowed me to avoid Catholic (explicit) teaching, those who were had to endure the 1960s Vatican Two document. Of course by South African standards the Christian Brothers were considered enlighted progressives.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6950</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 01:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6950</guid>
		<description>"I prefer the 18 century to the twentieth" - sounds like Jesuits! are you sure it was a Christian Brothers school? The Christian Brothers could always be relied upon to belt  19th c. Catholic teaching into boys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I prefer the 18 century to the twentieth&#8221; - sounds like Jesuits! are you sure it was a Christian Brothers school? The Christian Brothers could always be relied upon to belt  19th c. Catholic teaching into boys.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6949</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:20:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6949</guid>
		<description>Steve,

the recognition carries benefits (?), like property rights, family tax benefits etc. The loss to the governement is obviously the amount of benefits that it doesn't pay now that it would have to, and differences in tax takes based on combined family incomes versus two separate ones.
Actually, as far as I'm concerned, the government should have no role in determining how people classify their relationships -- it should just treat people as individuals, although this isn't even slightly possible at all under the current system. This way we could delete the government from the mess which it has created, and wouldn't need to worry about being registered by default, registering, who is allowed to marry people, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>the recognition carries benefits (?), like property rights, family tax benefits etc. The loss to the governement is obviously the amount of benefits that it doesn&#8217;t pay now that it would have to, and differences in tax takes based on combined family incomes versus two separate ones.<br />
Actually, as far as I&#8217;m concerned, the government should have no role in determining how people classify their relationships &#8212; it should just treat people as individuals, although this isn&#8217;t even slightly possible at all under the current system. This way we could delete the government from the mess which it has created, and wouldn&#8217;t need to worry about being registered by default, registering, who is allowed to marry people, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6965</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6965</guid>
		<description>Yes, Conrad, I meant to point out that I was aware of the government's interest in some cases of recognizing a relationship, whether or not the partners want it recognized.  But doesn't recognition carry some benefits as well as some penalities, and I wonder how big the net loss might be for the government if you did insist on "registration" or marriage before the status is recognised.
The only people I can see disadvantaged would be those who are not yet divorced but living with someone else.  As the fastest you can get divorced is about 15 months, maybe that is reason to let them register without calling it marriage.  Certainly, this idea re-introduces more certainly into society, which I thought was the whole point of secular civil marriage in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Conrad, I meant to point out that I was aware of the government&#8217;s interest in some cases of recognizing a relationship, whether or not the partners want it recognized.  But doesn&#8217;t recognition carry some benefits as well as some penalities, and I wonder how big the net loss might be for the government if you did insist on &#8220;registration&#8221; or marriage before the status is recognised.<br />
The only people I can see disadvantaged would be those who are not yet divorced but living with someone else.  As the fastest you can get divorced is about 15 months, maybe that is reason to let them register without calling it marriage.  Certainly, this idea re-introduces more certainly into society, which I thought was the whole point of secular civil marriage in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6964</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6964</guid>
		<description>Steve,

I think the problem with heterosexual relationships is that you can lose benefits in some circumstances compared to being single (like unemployment) -- so if you were in one of these situations, it would be stupid to register. I presume this is why the government has obscure rules about classifying people as in a relationship. I think the solution is to change partners every year and half or so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve,</p>
<p>I think the problem with heterosexual relationships is that you can lose benefits in some circumstances compared to being single (like unemployment) &#8212; so if you were in one of these situations, it would be stupid to register. I presume this is why the government has obscure rules about classifying people as in a relationship. I think the solution is to change partners every year and half or so.</p>
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		<title>By: Sinclair Davidson</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6963</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinclair Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 20:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6963</guid>
		<description>Russell, I'm not a wishy-washy type. 'Wrong' and 'different' have very different meanings. One involves a value-judgement, the other does not. (I prefer the 18 century to the twentieth).

Having said that I agree with Russell's point. That is a great line, "The state has married me off".

If marriage were the sacrocant institution that the anti-same sex couple lobby maintained, they would argue against de facto provisions of the law, they'd bring back 'at fault' divorce, recriminilise adultry, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell, I&#8217;m not a wishy-washy type. &#8216;Wrong&#8217; and &#8216;different&#8217; have very different meanings. One involves a value-judgement, the other does not. (I prefer the 18 century to the twentieth).</p>
<p>Having said that I agree with Russell&#8217;s point. That is a great line, &#8220;The state has married me off&#8221;.</p>
<p>If marriage were the sacrocant institution that the anti-same sex couple lobby maintained, they would argue against de facto provisions of the law, they&#8217;d bring back &#8216;at fault&#8217; divorce, recriminilise adultry, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-6962</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 14:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/30/labor-and-same-sex-relationships/#comment-6962</guid>
		<description>"Russell - you’re on the wrong page" - so twentieth century Sinclair, and quite inappropriate given the topic of this thread. You're now supposed to say "... on a different page".

"some de factos don’t even know that they are technically in a de facto relationship and may not realise the legislation applies to them.)" I remember telling a friend of mine who is in a de facto relationship that to all intents and purposes the law regarded her as married to 'the boyfriend' - she went and checked the law and was horrified, she emailed me back "The state has married me off and not even told me..."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Russell - you’re on the wrong page&#8221; - so twentieth century Sinclair, and quite inappropriate given the topic of this thread. You&#8217;re now supposed to say &#8220;&#8230; on a different page&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;some de factos don’t even know that they are technically in a de facto relationship and may not realise the legislation applies to them.)&#8221; I remember telling a friend of mine who is in a de facto relationship that to all intents and purposes the law regarded her as married to &#8216;the boyfriend&#8217; - she went and checked the law and was horrified, she emailed me back &#8220;The state has married me off and not even told me&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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