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	<title>Comments on: The anti-economic rationalist genre</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Buffett’s new anti-mercantilist protectionism</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6482</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Buffett’s new anti-mercantilist protectionism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 13:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] oil. Indeed there was a society dedicated to promoting the policy which was run by people like this one whose unreflective protectionism has since demonstrated what looked pretty obvious at the time – [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] oil. Indeed there was a society dedicated to promoting the policy which was run by people like this one whose unreflective protectionism has since demonstrated what looked pretty obvious at the time – [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6431</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6431</guid>
		<description>"I don’t have a simple answer" - I suppose that's all I wanted to hear really, because (back to the topic) it seems to me that economic rationalism is far too simplistic: market forces are best, free trade is best, continually reducing government is best etc.
I'm looking at container deposit schemes at the moment and it's the usual depressing story - the packaging industry says it's a cost and opposes them, the environmentalists say the cost is worth it for the benefits. Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
As to cars and clothes - a bit complex for me, but I would support activities based partly on their importance: a car industry is important because we wouldn't want to lose all the knowledge and advanced technical skills, in all the industries, that go into making cars - - as long as we need cars.
 Making clothes is a simple skill that individuals can learn for themselves - as many do. I guess that you could fairly easily resuscitate a footwear industry if you had to, but not a car industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don’t have a simple answer&#8221; - I suppose that&#8217;s all I wanted to hear really, because (back to the topic) it seems to me that economic rationalism is far too simplistic: market forces are best, free trade is best, continually reducing government is best etc.<br />
I&#8217;m looking at container deposit schemes at the moment and it&#8217;s the usual depressing story - the packaging industry says it&#8217;s a cost and opposes them, the environmentalists say the cost is worth it for the benefits. Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.<br />
As to cars and clothes - a bit complex for me, but I would support activities based partly on their importance: a car industry is important because we wouldn&#8217;t want to lose all the knowledge and advanced technical skills, in all the industries, that go into making cars - - as long as we need cars.<br />
 Making clothes is a simple skill that individuals can learn for themselves - as many do. I guess that you could fairly easily resuscitate a footwear industry if you had to, but not a car industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6454</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6454</guid>
		<description># 88 "evil" was too strong in the context, read "downside". What has to be taken into account is how many people you want to see supported in a lifestyle that is no longer economically viable - consider the bullockies of a hundred years ago. I don't  have a simple answer and I am not a utopian so I don't expect that there is a simple answer, certainly there is no solution that will make eveyone happy.

The situation in France is that there are a lot of farmers on very small plots of land and they need to be propped up by the taxpayers at large. Incidentally to get over the shortage of land at home, French wine interests have invested bigtime in South Australia.

What factors would you take into account if you were planning to argue in favour of raising the tariff on cars, shoes and clothes to their previous level? And if  you are not prepared to make that case, why not? The makers of cars, shoes and clothes will love you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># 88 &#8220;evil&#8221; was too strong in the context, read &#8220;downside&#8221;. What has to be taken into account is how many people you want to see supported in a lifestyle that is no longer economically viable - consider the bullockies of a hundred years ago. I don&#8217;t  have a simple answer and I am not a utopian so I don&#8217;t expect that there is a simple answer, certainly there is no solution that will make eveyone happy.</p>
<p>The situation in France is that there are a lot of farmers on very small plots of land and they need to be propped up by the taxpayers at large. Incidentally to get over the shortage of land at home, French wine interests have invested bigtime in South Australia.</p>
<p>What factors would you take into account if you were planning to argue in favour of raising the tariff on cars, shoes and clothes to their previous level? And if  you are not prepared to make that case, why not? The makers of cars, shoes and clothes will love you!</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Gruen</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6453</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Gruen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6453</guid>
		<description>Like Martin said in the internet piece:

"Data and events in our memory banks that don't support our position or emotional state meet the fate of all such data, regardless of the analytical application."

It's a pity that he gets such a good run in the Age. No matter what the subject I always like to read contrarian views - but only if they have something to offer.  In this case, I'm afraid it just ain't so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Martin said in the internet piece:</p>
<p>&#8220;Data and events in our memory banks that don&#8217;t support our position or emotional state meet the fate of all such data, regardless of the analytical application.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a pity that he gets such a good run in the Age. No matter what the subject I always like to read contrarian views - but only if they have something to offer.  In this case, I&#8217;m afraid it just ain&#8217;t so.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6513</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 03:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6513</guid>
		<description>"classical liberals are not just concerned about markets, we are also concerned about the rule of law and the moral framework as well."
Moral as in describing political inteventions that favour special interests as "evil" (comment 38).
Are the French rural communities 'special interests', and is their favouring by the government evil? In answering that, what factors would you take into account?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;classical liberals are not just concerned about markets, we are also concerned about the rule of law and the moral framework as well.&#8221;<br />
Moral as in describing political inteventions that favour special interests as &#8220;evil&#8221; (comment 38).<br />
Are the French rural communities &#8217;special interests&#8217;, and is their favouring by the government evil? In answering that, what factors would you take into account?</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6512</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6512</guid>
		<description>Russell, I am prepared to handle any degree of complexity as it arises. Sacha has got it spot on in his last sentence.

The greatest dangers are state-protected monopolies where the issue is quite clear-cut. The are potentially bad and dangerous in all sorts of ways.

When you get into things that involve the possibility of cruelty and inhumane actions then of course moral and ethical issue need to be considered along with the economics of the case and maybe in defiance of the economics.  Slavery is an obvious case and you need to realise that classical liberals are not just concerned about markets, we are also concerned about the rule of law and the moral framework as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell, I am prepared to handle any degree of complexity as it arises. Sacha has got it spot on in his last sentence.</p>
<p>The greatest dangers are state-protected monopolies where the issue is quite clear-cut. The are potentially bad and dangerous in all sorts of ways.</p>
<p>When you get into things that involve the possibility of cruelty and inhumane actions then of course moral and ethical issue need to be considered along with the economics of the case and maybe in defiance of the economics.  Slavery is an obvious case and you need to realise that classical liberals are not just concerned about markets, we are also concerned about the rule of law and the moral framework as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha Blumen</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6511</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha Blumen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6511</guid>
		<description>Russell - I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this. (And I mean this honestly!)

The reason I say this is, that while I understand the logic in what you write, I *feel* that this last comment is taking something to a logical conclusion of some sort, whereas in reality, logical conclusions are not taken. In logic and pure mathematics (in using proof by contradiction), one might use an argument appealing to the logical conclusion of an argument, but I feel that this is not authentic in politics (and economics).

I feel, without speaking on his behalf, that Rafe's argument is about special interests using their situations to benefit themselves selfishly at the expense of the general public, and there are innumerable examples of this happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell - I&#8217;m honestly not sure how to respond to this. (And I mean this honestly!)</p>
<p>The reason I say this is, that while I understand the logic in what you write, I *feel* that this last comment is taking something to a logical conclusion of some sort, whereas in reality, logical conclusions are not taken. In logic and pure mathematics (in using proof by contradiction), one might use an argument appealing to the logical conclusion of an argument, but I feel that this is not authentic in politics (and economics).</p>
<p>I feel, without speaking on his behalf, that Rafe&#8217;s argument is about special interests using their situations to benefit themselves selfishly at the expense of the general public, and there are innumerable examples of this happening.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6452</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6452</guid>
		<description>Well Rafe was going on about "reducing the opportunities for special interests to exploit consumers", without allowing for any complexities. If I want to try to influence politicians to ban battery hens in tiny cages, even though that's the cheapest way to produce eggs, I think I'm entitled to - perhaps even morally obliged to if I think keeping hens that way is cruel.
If I were selling eggs from hens kept in perfect conditions, and campaigning against battery hens, Rafe might say I was only hoping to force my competitors and their cheap eggs out of the market - but again, if I believed that hens should be kept in more natural conditions, I would be following my conscience in trying to outlaw the tiny cages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Rafe was going on about &#8220;reducing the opportunities for special interests to exploit consumers&#8221;, without allowing for any complexities. If I want to try to influence politicians to ban battery hens in tiny cages, even though that&#8217;s the cheapest way to produce eggs, I think I&#8217;m entitled to - perhaps even morally obliged to if I think keeping hens that way is cruel.<br />
If I were selling eggs from hens kept in perfect conditions, and campaigning against battery hens, Rafe might say I was only hoping to force my competitors and their cheap eggs out of the market - but again, if I believed that hens should be kept in more natural conditions, I would be following my conscience in trying to outlaw the tiny cages.</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6446</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6446</guid>
		<description>Perhaps its the distinction between what one can do and what one might do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps its the distinction between what one can do and what one might do?</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/04/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/comment-page-2/#comment-6451</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 04:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/04/09/the-anti-economic-rationalist-genre/#comment-6451</guid>
		<description>Thanks Russell - I don't listen to Radio National (I listen to the local ABC station in the morning). Glad to hear you're not a popular culture snub :-)  (BTW My partner tells me I'm a popular culture vacuum - probably because I don't read the social pages much - I read more on politics and economics!)

About your question - "does the right to make money trump social responsibility?" I suppose that the starting point to think about this is to work out everyone's responsibilities. What are everyone's legal responsibilities? If one can legally do something (eg make money) then is it some kind of ethical consideration as to whether you make money in what others might think is a slightly unethical way? Should ethics be legislated for? How would one legislate this way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Russell - I don&#8217;t listen to Radio National (I listen to the local ABC station in the morning). Glad to hear you&#8217;re not a popular culture snub <img src='http://andrewnorton.info/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  (BTW My partner tells me I&#8217;m a popular culture vacuum - probably because I don&#8217;t read the social pages much - I read more on politics and economics!)</p>
<p>About your question - &#8220;does the right to make money trump social responsibility?&#8221; I suppose that the starting point to think about this is to work out everyone&#8217;s responsibilities. What are everyone&#8217;s legal responsibilities? If one can legally do something (eg make money) then is it some kind of ethical consideration as to whether you make money in what others might think is a slightly unethical way? Should ethics be legislated for? How would one legislate this way?</p>
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