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	<title>Comments on: Some perestroika in higher education</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 01:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Higher education in the Budget</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-13693</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Higher education in the Budget</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 12:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] write the article (Wayne Swan&#8217;s voice droning in the background did not help either). Unlike last year, though, there wasn&#8217;t too much to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] write the article (Wayne Swan&#8217;s voice droning in the background did not help either). Unlike last year, though, there wasn&#8217;t too much to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7115</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 20:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7115</guid>
		<description>I think you're much more optimistic than me Andrew with respect to whether these bottleneck could simply fix themselves given market forces -- and I think the governments are always going to  block them anyway, so we won't have to worry about this.

This is going to be particularily so given the rather fast move towards getting students to pay for their clinical training (direct, or indirectly by asking the university to pay for it), which has often been historically free in many areas. THis means that the actual costs of these courses is likely to increase dramatically, and I can imagine that particularily high fees in some of these courses are not going to be politically popular with the government (or the populace at large), and hence untenable (Melbourne University exluded), given the constant scare mongering which already goes on about these fees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re much more optimistic than me Andrew with respect to whether these bottleneck could simply fix themselves given market forces &#8212; and I think the governments are always going to  block them anyway, so we won&#8217;t have to worry about this.</p>
<p>This is going to be particularily so given the rather fast move towards getting students to pay for their clinical training (direct, or indirectly by asking the university to pay for it), which has often been historically free in many areas. THis means that the actual costs of these courses is likely to increase dramatically, and I can imagine that particularily high fees in some of these courses are not going to be politically popular with the government (or the populace at large), and hence untenable (Melbourne University exluded), given the constant scare mongering which already goes on about these fees.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7114</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 09:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7114</guid>
		<description>In this case, the government has altered both SR and HR. I altered SR &lt;a href="http://www.dest.gov.au/ministers/bishop/budget07/bud05_07.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;(its subsidy)&lt;/a&gt; by reducing it. Commerce is in one of seven subsidy bands; it used to have its own, but from next year it will share one with law.

The 25% is not mentioned anywhere in legislation. I just so happened that the 3 bands of maximum student contribution amounts &lt;a href="http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/main/feesloansandscholarships/postgraduate/commonwealthsupportforyourplaceandhecs-help/whatyoupay.htm#1" rel="nofollow"&gt;set by the government&lt;/a&gt; were 25% above the rates set by differential HECS when it was introduced in 1997. What is going to happen is that Commerce will move from band 2 to band 3, the highest band.

There is unlikely to be any substitution, as I explained in &lt;a href="http://www.cis.org.au/exechigh/Eh2007/EH43607.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;criticising Labor's plan to cut HECS for maths and science&lt;/a&gt;. Students are primarily driven by their interests in choosing between disciplines. And if a prospective economics student can't work out than an extra $3,000 is trivial in terms of their lifetime earnings then clearly they are not suited to economics in the first place!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In this case, the government has altered both SR and HR. I altered SR <a href="http://www.dest.gov.au/ministers/bishop/budget07/bud05_07.htm" rel="nofollow">(its subsidy)</a> by reducing it. Commerce is in one of seven subsidy bands; it used to have its own, but from next year it will share one with law.</p>
<p>The 25% is not mentioned anywhere in legislation. I just so happened that the 3 bands of maximum student contribution amounts <a href="http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/main/feesloansandscholarships/postgraduate/commonwealthsupportforyourplaceandhecs-help/whatyoupay.htm#1" rel="nofollow">set by the government</a> were 25% above the rates set by differential HECS when it was introduced in 1997. What is going to happen is that Commerce will move from band 2 to band 3, the highest band.</p>
<p>There is unlikely to be any substitution, as I explained in <a href="http://www.cis.org.au/exechigh/Eh2007/EH43607.htm" rel="nofollow">criticising Labor&#8217;s plan to cut HECS for maths and science</a>. Students are primarily driven by their interests in choosing between disciplines. And if a prospective economics student can&#8217;t work out than an extra $3,000 is trivial in terms of their lifetime earnings then clearly they are not suited to economics in the first place!</p>
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		<title>By: Damien Eldridge</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7113</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien Eldridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 09:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7113</guid>
		<description>Andrew, let me ask a question to which you probably know the answer and which will hopefully clear up what this funding change means. (I am probably being hopelessly dense here!!!) The unioversities recieve a ceretain amount of total funds for Commonwealth supported students. Let this be denoted by TR. This consists of HECS fees from those students (HR) and a government subsidy for these students (SR). Suppose that hese variables are averages per student. Thus if there are n Commonwealth supported students in a particular discipline, the total revenue for these students is nTR.

The government sets a particular level of HECS contribution per student in a particular discipline of X. Universities are able to mark up this amount by up to 25 per cent. My understanding is that most universities have chosen the maximum markup, so that HR is equal to 1.25X.

Clearly the announced changes will alter TR. Do they do this by altering X or altering SR? It seems that they amount to a reduction in SR. However, what is the impact on X? Is there any impact on X? If X falls along with SR, then TR must fall. If X stays the same then TR must fall. If X increases, then the impact on TR will be ambiguous. It will depend on the increase in X relative to the decrease in SR. It will also depend on each universities choice about the size of the markup. My understanding is that this markup is still limited to be at most 25 % of X.

If X increases by enough to allow universities to potentially recover the decrease in SR, then the effective price facing the students for Economics degrees (and other degrees in the business area) will rise relative to other courses. This leads me to wonder about the extent of substitutability between courses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, let me ask a question to which you probably know the answer and which will hopefully clear up what this funding change means. (I am probably being hopelessly dense here!!!) The unioversities recieve a ceretain amount of total funds for Commonwealth supported students. Let this be denoted by TR. This consists of HECS fees from those students (HR) and a government subsidy for these students (SR). Suppose that hese variables are averages per student. Thus if there are n Commonwealth supported students in a particular discipline, the total revenue for these students is nTR.</p>
<p>The government sets a particular level of HECS contribution per student in a particular discipline of X. Universities are able to mark up this amount by up to 25 per cent. My understanding is that most universities have chosen the maximum markup, so that HR is equal to 1.25X.</p>
<p>Clearly the announced changes will alter TR. Do they do this by altering X or altering SR? It seems that they amount to a reduction in SR. However, what is the impact on X? Is there any impact on X? If X falls along with SR, then TR must fall. If X stays the same then TR must fall. If X increases, then the impact on TR will be ambiguous. It will depend on the increase in X relative to the decrease in SR. It will also depend on each universities choice about the size of the markup. My understanding is that this markup is still limited to be at most 25 % of X.</p>
<p>If X increases by enough to allow universities to potentially recover the decrease in SR, then the effective price facing the students for Economics degrees (and other degrees in the business area) will rise relative to other courses. This leads me to wonder about the extent of substitutability between courses.</p>
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		<title>By: Invig</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7112</link>
		<dc:creator>Invig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 09:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7112</guid>
		<description>Graeme,

Yeah, lawyers are great. I wish I was a lawyer.

Pity engineering sucked me in with it's impossibly-high workload and (relatively) low wages.

Law is where the real future is, but no one seems to realise it.
We need more people to tell us what we should and shouldn't do, and get paid lots to do it.

Damn people wanting to just be happy! Thank God the lawyers are here to introduce a bit of reality into their (now) process-driven lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graeme,</p>
<p>Yeah, lawyers are great. I wish I was a lawyer.</p>
<p>Pity engineering sucked me in with it&#8217;s impossibly-high workload and (relatively) low wages.</p>
<p>Law is where the real future is, but no one seems to realise it.<br />
We need more people to tell us what we should and shouldn&#8217;t do, and get paid lots to do it.</p>
<p>Damn people wanting to just be happy! Thank God the lawyers are here to introduce a bit of reality into their (now) process-driven lives.</p>
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		<title>By: John Humphreys</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7107</link>
		<dc:creator>John Humphreys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 02:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7107</guid>
		<description>If more lawyers drive down the cost of lawyers then bring it on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If more lawyers drive down the cost of lawyers then bring it on.</p>
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		<title>By: Graeme</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7108</link>
		<dc:creator>Graeme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 02:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7108</guid>
		<description>I've worked in legal academia for about 14 years.  For social and pedagogical reasons, we need a system that provides a disincentive to blow-outs in law student numbers.

Neither the current system, nor de-regulated models do that.     The current system encourages unis to blow-out law numbers to make up for shortfalls in other disciplines (even though law is underfunded on the current metric).     De-regulated models simply pander to the market.       Demand for law is mostly arational:  coming from students with little interest or aptitude, but certain socio-economic aspirations (often injected by their parents).     Law is not alone in this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve worked in legal academia for about 14 years.  For social and pedagogical reasons, we need a system that provides a disincentive to blow-outs in law student numbers.</p>
<p>Neither the current system, nor de-regulated models do that.     The current system encourages unis to blow-out law numbers to make up for shortfalls in other disciplines (even though law is underfunded on the current metric).     De-regulated models simply pander to the market.       Demand for law is mostly arational:  coming from students with little interest or aptitude, but certain socio-economic aspirations (often injected by their parents).     Law is not alone in this.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7101</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 00:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7101</guid>
		<description>Conrad - In health, there are bottlenecks at clinical placement level, which are only partly caused by funding issues. But these have developed because there has been a substantial increase in student numbers over recent times, partly full-fee, partly Commonwealth-supported. We could have responded to more demand in the 1990s and the first part of the 2000s than we in fact did without hitting substantial capacity constraints. And generally capacity issues can be resolved within a few years, if universities are able to set their own direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conrad - In health, there are bottlenecks at clinical placement level, which are only partly caused by funding issues. But these have developed because there has been a substantial increase in student numbers over recent times, partly full-fee, partly Commonwealth-supported. We could have responded to more demand in the 1990s and the first part of the 2000s than we in fact did without hitting substantial capacity constraints. And generally capacity issues can be resolved within a few years, if universities are able to set their own direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7102</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 23:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7102</guid>
		<description>I guess if universities were free to expand Commonwealth-supported places, it would make more sense to base the student subsidy on a share of course costs, with the share based on a view of the positive externalities generated by students studying the course in question. However, given that Commonwealth-supported course numbers are currently more or less fixed and generally in demand, it might be reasonable to base the student contribution on willingness-to-pay. This would suggest student contribution based on private benefits (proxied by lifetime incomes). The good thing is that the growth in places will largely be in full-fee places, where course costs will have a greater influence on fees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess if universities were free to expand Commonwealth-supported places, it would make more sense to base the student subsidy on a share of course costs, with the share based on a view of the positive externalities generated by students studying the course in question. However, given that Commonwealth-supported course numbers are currently more or less fixed and generally in demand, it might be reasonable to base the student contribution on willingness-to-pay. This would suggest student contribution based on private benefits (proxied by lifetime incomes). The good thing is that the growth in places will largely be in full-fee places, where course costs will have a greater influence on fees.</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/05/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7106</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 23:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/05/08/some-perestroika-in-higher-education/#comment-7106</guid>
		<description>I read an article in this week's Economist (on p 57) on evidence from experience of school vouchers which I know readers of this site will be interested in.

"Bishop said the change reflected the higher salaries that graduates in those disciplines received over a lifetime. Universities were free to decide whether they would raise the fees for these disciplines."

In relation to "the lifetime earnings of Commerce graduates" (say) above - does the distribution of lifetime earnings of Commerce graduates (or graduates of other disciplines) have a small variance" If the lifetime earnings has a large variance,  what is the justification for linking supposed lifetime earnings with potential fees for those courses?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read an article in this week&#8217;s Economist (on p 57) on evidence from experience of school vouchers which I know readers of this site will be interested in.</p>
<p>&#8220;Bishop said the change reflected the higher salaries that graduates in those disciplines received over a lifetime. Universities were free to decide whether they would raise the fees for these disciplines.&#8221;</p>
<p>In relation to &#8220;the lifetime earnings of Commerce graduates&#8221; (say) above - does the distribution of lifetime earnings of Commerce graduates (or graduates of other disciplines) have a small variance&#8221; If the lifetime earnings has a large variance,  what is the justification for linking supposed lifetime earnings with potential fees for those courses?</p>
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