Comments on: The starstruck broadsheet press http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/ Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:25:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Brendan Halfweeg http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9143 Brendan Halfweeg Fri, 31 Aug 2007 06:43:09 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9143 John Donne is one of my favourite poets, but I prefer his cheeky poems, such as The Flea. Our discussion has little to do with the metaphysical poets. Pointing out that man is a social being and mortal only re-inforces the need for us to co-operate voluntarily, which is what Donne is doing in The Flea, trying to convince his fiancee to sleep with him through clever word play rather than forcing her to accept his will. You seem to prefer the idea that we all need pushing around to acheive the ends you think will serve us better. I disagree. John Donne is one of my favourite poets, but I prefer his cheeky poems, such as The Flea. Our discussion has little to do with the metaphysical poets. Pointing out that man is a social being and mortal only re-inforces the need for us to co-operate voluntarily, which is what Donne is doing in The Flea, trying to convince his fiancee to sleep with him through clever word play rather than forcing her to accept his will. You seem to prefer the idea that we all need pushing around to acheive the ends you think will serve us better. I disagree.

]]> By: Russell http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9197 Russell Fri, 31 Aug 2007 01:16:13 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9197 "Go, do your thing, just let me do my thing. Be free damn it." Which takes us back to poetry, again: No man is an island, entire of itself every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee. -- John Donne “Go, do your thing, just let me do my thing. Be free damn it.”

Which takes us back to poetry, again:

No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.

– John Donne

]]> By: Brendan Halfweeg http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9196 Brendan Halfweeg Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:28:08 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9196 Russell, You have to live with other people's decisions so that they will live with your decisions. Once you try to take property rights off of some people because you don't like their decisions,, the likelihood of you being affected by a swing in public opinion or the fickleness of government increase. I'd really like to live in a world where community minded people like yourself would be free to go live on a self-sustaining commune in the South West, free from state control, so long as you respect my decision to live in a McMansion and drive around in my Landcruiser smoking big fat cigars and enjoying 12 year single malts (although not while or prior to driving mind) and haggis flown in from Cuba and Scotland respectively. Go, do your thing, just let me do my thing. Be free damn it. Russell,

You have to live with other people’s decisions so that they will live with your decisions. Once you try to take property rights off of some people because you don’t like their decisions,, the likelihood of you being affected by a swing in public opinion or the fickleness of government increase. I’d really like to live in a world where community minded people like yourself would be free to go live on a self-sustaining commune in the South West, free from state control, so long as you respect my decision to live in a McMansion and drive around in my Landcruiser smoking big fat cigars and enjoying 12 year single malts (although not while or prior to driving mind) and haggis flown in from Cuba and Scotland respectively. Go, do your thing, just let me do my thing. Be free damn it.

]]> By: Russell http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9157 Russell Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:49:10 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9157 "what is to stop a future government from repealing the council’s decision to “preserve” historic Fremantle?" Public opinion. People are free to argue and persuade and convince others to believe as they do - that's democracy, not always perfect (look how the media crucified Whitlam) but I'd choose it over money power. We're trying to move away from money power to ... people power, ideas power! Maybe democracy is suited to lazy people - instead of continually gearing up to organise and fund raise, time and time again for every building or piece of bushland, we can just convince people that passing a regulation is the way to go. We can just create a Heritage Council and watch it go about the business we've given it to do. Someone like Jamie Packer might inherit hundreds of millions of dollars, but why should that mean the rest of us have to live in a world shaped by his decisions, just because he can outspend us? “what is to stop a future government from repealing the council’s decision to “preserve” historic Fremantle?”

Public opinion. People are free to argue and persuade and convince others to believe as they do - that’s democracy, not always perfect (look how the media crucified Whitlam) but I’d choose it over money power. We’re trying to move away from money power to … people power, ideas power!

Maybe democracy is suited to lazy people - instead of continually gearing up to organise and fund raise, time and time again for every building or piece of bushland, we can just convince people that passing a regulation is the way to go. We can just create a Heritage Council and watch it go about the business we’ve given it to do. Someone like Jamie Packer might inherit hundreds of millions of dollars, but why should that mean the rest of us have to live in a world shaped by his decisions, just because he can outspend us?

]]> By: Brendan Halfweeg http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9142 Brendan Halfweeg Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:26:49 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9142 Conrad, I don't think that land reform is impossible. Put it this way, Estonia was a nation under a socialist system where everything was state owned. They moved to a capitalist system of private ownership and aren't doing to bad for themselves. Conrad, I don’t think that land reform is impossible. Put it this way, Estonia was a nation under a socialist system where everything was state owned. They moved to a capitalist system of private ownership and aren’t doing to bad for themselves.

]]> By: Brendan Halfweeg http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9141 Brendan Halfweeg Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:12:52 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9141 Russell, what is to stop a future government from repealing the council's decision to "preserve" historic Fremantle? If a conservationist charity owned the buildings, earned rent form them to preserve them, it would not matter what the state did. Civilisation began a long time before universal suffrage. No Roman or Greek voted to preserve the ruins in their midst. Russell, what is to stop a future government from repealing the council’s decision to “preserve” historic Fremantle? If a conservationist charity owned the buildings, earned rent form them to preserve them, it would not matter what the state did. Civilisation began a long time before universal suffrage. No Roman or Greek voted to preserve the ruins in their midst.

]]> By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9140 conrad Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:10:57 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9140 I think we a probably in agreement Brendan about the results of governments mismanaging land usage, where one group gets favoured over another, for mainly political reasons. Alternatively I don't believe that the State is ever going to give up the land under dispute (some of it is in world heritage zones for instance, so there you are in an even more impossible situation). Thats why my suggestion is to use business leases like everything else. I don't see why 30 year leases and so on with conditions specified couldn't be used (these are common all over the world -- often 99 year leases are used). If some conservationist wants to pay more than tourist/logging operators to the government in that time to breed koalas (or whatever), its all fine by me. I think we a probably in agreement Brendan about the results of governments mismanaging land usage, where one group gets favoured over another, for mainly political reasons.

Alternatively I don’t believe that the State is ever going to give up the land under dispute (some of it is in world heritage zones for instance, so there you are in an even more impossible situation). Thats why my suggestion is to use business leases like everything else. I don’t see why 30 year leases and so on with conditions specified couldn’t be used (these are common all over the world — often 99 year leases are used). If some conservationist wants to pay more than tourist/logging operators to the government in that time to breed koalas (or whatever), its all fine by me.

]]> By: Brendan Halfweeg http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9139 Brendan Halfweeg Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:56:14 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9139 Conrad, I don't really care about the logging per se. The problem with crown land is the uncertainty in rights that any user of that land has. This whole idea of trusting the state to be a fair player is an anathema to poor, rich, capitalist and conservationists alike. The state is adept at playing off one group against another, politicians will always use the resources of the state to maintain power. Crown land is a significant resource, and as long as the state controls vast swathes of land and the mineral rights beneath our feet, we will never be sure that what is ours is ours and what is yours is yours. Secure private property rights prevents cosy deals like the pulp mill in Tasmania because without power over the land and what grows upon ir or lies beneath it, the state is unable to overide the wishes of its owners. Sure, if the land was owned by the pulp mill proponents, they'd be free to do with it what they will. But they would have had to pay market price for the land and its trees and competed for access to the resource with conservationists, tour operators and others who might have an interest in the land. Under state control, the pulp mill proponents get access to land for a bargain through rent seeking with their friends in Hobart and Canberra. That is the problem and that costs more than some conservationist buying the land and locking it up for ever more. Conrad, I don’t really care about the logging per se. The problem with crown land is the uncertainty in rights that any user of that land has. This whole idea of trusting the state to be a fair player is an anathema to poor, rich, capitalist and conservationists alike. The state is adept at playing off one group against another, politicians will always use the resources of the state to maintain power. Crown land is a significant resource, and as long as the state controls vast swathes of land and the mineral rights beneath our feet, we will never be sure that what is ours is ours and what is yours is yours. Secure private property rights prevents cosy deals like the pulp mill in Tasmania because without power over the land and what grows upon ir or lies beneath it, the state is unable to overide the wishes of its owners. Sure, if the land was owned by the pulp mill proponents, they’d be free to do with it what they will. But they would have had to pay market price for the land and its trees and competed for access to the resource with conservationists, tour operators and others who might have an interest in the land. Under state control, the pulp mill proponents get access to land for a bargain through rent seeking with their friends in Hobart and Canberra. That is the problem and that costs more than some conservationist buying the land and locking it up for ever more.

]]> By: Russell http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9160 Russell Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:44:20 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9160 Ah Brendan - this is what civilisation brings us: I can eat, have a roof over my head AND participate in the life of the community by voting. I guess you would like to bring back property votes? I think your 'future generations' are already here and very glad that 'old Fremantle' was valued for what it was, and saved from the developers. Ah Brendan - this is what civilisation brings us: I can eat, have a roof over my head AND participate in the life of the community by voting. I guess you would like to bring back property votes?

I think your ‘future generations’ are already here and very glad that ‘old Fremantle’ was valued for what it was, and saved from the developers.

]]> By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2007/08/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9201 conrad Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:27:00 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/08/28/the-starstruck-broadsheet-press/#comment-9201 Brendan -- I don't disagree with you about the effect of selling the public land off, but since that is never going to happen, you need to start thinking of alternative ways of allowing looging. I really don't see why this is a fuss incidentally -- the government can simply sign leases for many years (as is done with property etc. already), in which case anyone setting up businesses doing logging has some idea of the value of investing in infrastucture. If the government then breaks the lease due to whatever reason (e.g., popular pressure) then those people with the leases should be able to sue for compensation. This is just standard business practice, and I don't see what the big deal is. Brendan — I don’t disagree with you about the effect of selling the public land off, but since that is never going to happen, you need to start thinking of alternative ways of allowing looging.
I really don’t see why this is a fuss incidentally — the government can simply sign leases for many years (as is done with property etc. already), in which case anyone setting up businesses doing logging has some idea of the value of investing in infrastucture. If the government then breaks the lease due to whatever reason (e.g., popular pressure) then those people with the leases should be able to sue for compensation. This is just standard business practice, and I don’t see what the big deal is.

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