Comments on: Unpopular Muslims http://andrewnorton.info/2007/09/unpopular-muslims/ Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:40:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2007/09/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9511 Andrew Norton Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:15:41 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/09/23/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9511 Terje - I'm not sure why the survey chose the negative formulation; it is phrased positively elsewhere. The normative/positive point is an important one, I think. There is no logical inconsistency is arguing that people of one race are on average less intelligent than another race, and that this is morally irrelevant, or relevant in ways that favour the less intelligent group. And it is quite possible to argue that races or even cultures are equal, while still wanting to exclude - which was pretty much the position behind the White Australia Policy, at least in its later stages. Terje - I’m not sure why the survey chose the negative formulation; it is phrased positively elsewhere. The normative/positive point is an important one, I think. There is no logical inconsistency is arguing that people of one race are on average less intelligent than another race, and that this is morally irrelevant, or relevant in ways that favour the less intelligent group. And it is quite possible to argue that races or even cultures are equal, while still wanting to exclude - which was pretty much the position behind the White Australia Policy, at least in its later stages.

]]> By: Terje (say tay-a) http://andrewnorton.info/2007/09/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9510 Terje (say tay-a) Thu, 27 Sep 2007 04:45:04 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/09/23/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9510 It would seem to me that the phrase "‘not all races of people are equal" is not entirely without ambiguity. It could be cleaned up a little by saying something like "people of different races are all equal". This would avoid the potential confusion of double negatives as in "No not all races of people are equal" versus "Yes not all races of people are equal" both of which are notionally racist answers depending on issues of comprehension. However it would still be unclear whether this phrase is meant to be treated as normative or positive. If somebody says they argree with the statement "blacks are not equal to whites" are they advocating that whites are superior to blacks or are they advocating for an end to black oppression? It would seem to me that the phrase “‘not all races of people are equal” is not entirely without ambiguity. It could be cleaned up a little by saying something like “people of different races are all equal”. This would avoid the potential confusion of double negatives as in “No not all races of people are equal” versus “Yes not all races of people are equal” both of which are notionally racist answers depending on issues of comprehension.

However it would still be unclear whether this phrase is meant to be treated as normative or positive. If somebody says they argree with the statement “blacks are not equal to whites” are they advocating that whites are superior to blacks or are they advocating for an end to black oppression?

]]> By: Andrew Leigh http://andrewnorton.info/2007/09/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9509 Andrew Leigh Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:49:19 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/09/23/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9509 Andrew, for some reason I missed your very interesting policy piece. In your last footnote, you say "Obviously it would be interesting to know if there have been significant shifts since September 2001". <a href="http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/jhr/2007ab/kaushal2.htm" rel="nofollow">This piece</a> on the labour market impacts of 9/11 is the best answer I know of to that question. It's looking at the US, but interesting nonetheless. Andrew, for some reason I missed your very interesting policy piece. In your last footnote, you say “Obviously it would be interesting to know if there have been significant shifts since September 2001″. This piece on the labour market impacts of 9/11 is the best answer I know of to that question. It’s looking at the US, but interesting nonetheless.

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2007/09/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9507 Andrew Norton Sun, 23 Sep 2007 21:26:44 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/09/23/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9507 Conrad - There is an assumption in these reports that any departure from statistical equality is prima facie evidence of discrimination (eg p.25 from the Victorian report), but I suspect 'racism' is rarely the main explanation. NESB people are over-represented in education and the professions, because migrants are a self-selecting ambitious group. African refugees are no doubt over-represented among the unemployed and low-skill jobs because they arrive without basic skills. But why do Indians dominate the convenience store industry? Why were so many Italians greengrocers in my childhood? Conrad - There is an assumption in these reports that any departure from statistical equality is prima facie evidence of discrimination (eg p.25 from the Victorian report), but I suspect ‘racism’ is rarely the main explanation. NESB people are over-represented in education and the professions, because migrants are a self-selecting ambitious group. African refugees are no doubt over-represented among the unemployed and low-skill jobs because they arrive without basic skills. But why do Indians dominate the convenience store industry? Why were so many Italians greengrocers in my childhood?

]]> By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2007/09/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9506 conrad Sun, 23 Sep 2007 21:12:29 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/09/23/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9506 I'm not especially sure how valid these sorts of surveys are for all but petty racism, since its very hard to know if you are not getting things like a job because you don't happen to look like the person giving it to you due to simple stereotyping, because of conscious racism, or because of other better candidates. Its hard to know the extent this affects people, but looking at the jobs minority groups do shows that there is probably a huge amount of stereotyping going on (sometimes positive), and it is moreso in other groups than Muslims, which everyone seems so compelled to talk and worry about. As an example, I can't even remember the last Chinese blue collar worker I have met in Australia, I can't think of any in the lower house of parliament in any state (so people won't vote for them), but I think about half the doctors I go to are Chinese. Its hard to know the extent these things are due to racism, but its sure to play a part, and probably a part the individual wouldn't be able to definitely say happened to them. I’m not especially sure how valid these sorts of surveys are for all but petty racism, since its very hard to know if you are not getting things like a job because you don’t happen to look like the person giving it to you due to simple stereotyping, because of conscious racism, or because of other better candidates.
Its hard to know the extent this affects people, but looking at the jobs minority groups do shows that there is probably a huge amount of stereotyping going on (sometimes positive), and it is moreso in other groups than Muslims, which everyone seems so compelled to talk and worry about. As an example, I can’t even remember the last Chinese blue collar worker I have met in Australia, I can’t think of any in the lower house of parliament in any state (so people won’t vote for them), but I think about half the doctors I go to are Chinese. Its hard to know the extent these things are due to racism, but its sure to play a part, and probably a part the individual wouldn’t be able to definitely say happened to them.

]]> By: Damien Eldridge http://andrewnorton.info/2007/09/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9508 Damien Eldridge Sun, 23 Sep 2007 16:30:03 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/09/23/unpopular-muslims/#comment-9508 I suspect that abuse is more likely at sporting events, be it racist or otherwise. In fact, while I can't recall ever being abused by opposition supporters at the football, I remember being abused by a fellow Carlton supporter in the old Ponsford stand of the MCG many years ago. I thing he called an idiot or some such simply because he didn't like a suggestion I made about to whom the Carlton player kicking in from a behind should kick the ball. I suspect that abuse is more likely at sporting events, be it racist or otherwise. In fact, while I can’t recall ever being abused by opposition supporters at the football, I remember being abused by a fellow Carlton supporter in the old Ponsford stand of the MCG many years ago. I thing he called an idiot or some such simply because he didn’t like a suggestion I made about to whom the Carlton player kicking in from a behind should kick the ball.

]]>