Comments on: Higher education ‘equity’ in the for-profits http://andrewnorton.info/2007/10/higher-education-equity-in-the-for-profits/ Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal Fri, 05 Sep 2008 05:25:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2007/10/higher-education-equity-in-the-for-profits/#comment-9828 conrad Sat, 13 Oct 2007 01:07:03 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/10/12/higher-education-equity-in-the-for-profits/#comment-9828 Thinking about this issue a bit more, there must be data out there looking at the range of factors that cause people to succeed and fail in Australia. Apprenticeships are good example. Last time I looked the drop out rate was over 50%, despite the great benefits they give you over a life time (almost as much as university on average -- and you don't even have to pay for it). I imagine social skills might be a problem in this instance, but they must be very minor in comparison to other issues that I don't think colleges or universities can possibly deal with (lazyness, stupidity, etc.). Thinking about this issue a bit more, there must be data out there looking at the range of factors that cause people to succeed and fail in Australia. Apprenticeships are good example. Last time I looked the drop out rate was over 50%, despite the great benefits they give you over a life time (almost as much as university on average — and you don’t even have to pay for it). I imagine social skills might be a problem in this instance, but they must be very minor in comparison to other issues that I don’t think colleges or universities can possibly deal with (lazyness, stupidity, etc.).

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2007/10/higher-education-equity-in-the-for-profits/#comment-9830 Andrew Norton Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:12:45 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/10/12/higher-education-equity-in-the-for-profits/#comment-9830 Conrad - The study I was reading was only of a fairly small number of colleges of both types (community and occupational) but despite the far higher costs of the latter clearly they were finding a market. This is the only 'satisfaction' test they need. I suspect the people who went there were at least self-aware enough (or their parents were aware enough) that they needed discipline, control and instruction on how to 'fit in'. There are perhaps ethnic issues in the US that don't apply so much here. Social skills are an issue in the workplace - only academics who prefer working on their own could not think that! - but I suspect the brighter kids work out on their own what's needed. They are already going to uni and probably doing fine. The 'equity' agenda has to deal with generally less able and competent people, and there I think there is probably room for colleges dealing with more than just academic issues. Conrad - The study I was reading was only of a fairly small number of colleges of both types (community and occupational) but despite the far higher costs of the latter clearly they were finding a market. This is the only ’satisfaction’ test they need. I suspect the people who went there were at least self-aware enough (or their parents were aware enough) that they needed discipline, control and instruction on how to ‘fit in’. There are perhaps ethnic issues in the US that don’t apply so much here.

Social skills are an issue in the workplace - only academics who prefer working on their own could not think that! - but I suspect the brighter kids work out on their own what’s needed. They are already going to uni and probably doing fine. The ‘equity’ agenda has to deal with generally less able and competent people, and there I think there is probably room for colleges dealing with more than just academic issues.

]]> By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2007/10/higher-education-equity-in-the-for-profits/#comment-9829 conrad Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:40:47 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/10/12/higher-education-equity-in-the-for-profits/#comment-9829 Speaking of political correctness, I find it hard to imagine any university saying "low SES people are socially unprepared for higher-skill workplaces". You may as well argue to bring back colleges so women can learn to be lady-like, etc. No government is going to give you money for that. I can make four other observations here (1) even if universities were completely free in finding funding in Australia, I very much doubt that student numbers would drop to anything like those needed, since they also have to teach other stuff; (2) student satisfication is in conflict with the idea of punctuality and so on -- many students don't want to hand things in on time etc. and we wouldn't want to make them unhappy; (3) Most students work now anyway, and I can imagine that is even more true of low SES students, so I'm not sure that you really need to worry too much about those things anway; (4) I'll bet that, once controlled for ability and degree type, there is very little effect of SES status on job outcomes for university students if you can take into account rich kids getting jobs from their parents/families etc. (and hence the outcomes will be good). I'll be interested to see you write and find. Speaking of political correctness, I find it hard to imagine any university saying “low SES people are socially unprepared for higher-skill workplaces”. You may as well argue to bring back colleges so women can learn to be lady-like, etc. No government is going to give you money for that.
I can make four other observations here (1) even if universities were completely free in finding funding in Australia, I very much doubt that student numbers would drop to anything like those needed, since they also have to teach other stuff; (2) student satisfication is in conflict with the idea of punctuality and so on — many students don’t want to hand things in on time etc. and we wouldn’t want to make them unhappy; (3) Most students work now anyway, and I can imagine that is even more true of low SES students, so I’m not sure that you really need to worry too much about those things anway; (4) I’ll bet that, once controlled for ability and degree type, there is very little effect of SES status on job outcomes for university students if you can take into account rich kids getting jobs from their parents/families etc. (and hence the outcomes will be good).
I’ll be interested to see you write and find.

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