Comments on: Labor’s full-fee phase-out policy shambles, and what to do about it http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/ Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:18:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: nkjpgyus elbvxi http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-27656 nkjpgyus elbvxi Sat, 30 Aug 2008 01:55:49 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-27656 winyz vphoyn vbuewkrs pqtvysrun wjfmdsc pvrf omtcnyua winyz vphoyn vbuewkrs pqtvysrun wjfmdsc pvrf omtcnyua

]]> By: An OZ Higher Education Revolution? | Beerkens' Blog http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10455 An OZ Higher Education Revolution? | Beerkens' Blog Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:36:06 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10455 [...] might fall nicely in the Labor tradition, it remains to be seen what it’s effects will be. Andrew Norton and others point to a few issues that need to be raised in this respect.  First of all, the [...] [...] might fall nicely in the Labor tradition, it remains to be seen what it’s effects will be. Andrew Norton and others point to a few issues that need to be raised in this respect.  First of all, the [...]

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10454 Andrew Norton Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:50:10 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10454 Conrad - I agree that there are major conceptual difficulties in allocating costs, and most universities historically haven't even tried - they just know that costs are rising more quickly than revenue. But understanding costs is vital to running a business properly, and some unis (including Melbourne) are trying to get a clearer understanding of course costs in academic and general staff time, building costs etc. Conrad - I agree that there are major conceptual difficulties in allocating costs, and most universities historically haven’t even tried - they just know that costs are rising more quickly than revenue. But understanding costs is vital to running a business properly, and some unis (including Melbourne) are trying to get a clearer understanding of course costs in academic and general staff time, building costs etc.

]]> By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10447 conrad Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:35:43 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10447 Actually, I doubt the universities even know what the real cost per student in a particular course is a lot of the time. The best it breaks down to is what the costs are for a department. However, this doesn't tell you what the costs are per student if you want to have "student costs" and "other costs". The basic problem is you have staff that have multiple roles often using shared resources. You therefore have all sorts of weird things happeing like on-costs for some grants and not others and so on. Some roles are also in grey areas. If your department does marketing for the day as part of a faculty wide thing (even if you happen to have enough students), who should this cost be attributed too, for example? Actually, I doubt the universities even know what the real cost per student in a particular course is a lot of the time. The best it breaks down to is what the costs are for a department. However, this doesn’t tell you what the costs are per student if you want to have “student costs” and “other costs”. The basic problem is you have staff that have multiple roles often using shared resources. You therefore have all sorts of weird things happeing like on-costs for some grants and not others and so on. Some roles are also in grey areas. If your department does marketing for the day as part of a faculty wide thing (even if you happen to have enough students), who should this cost be attributed too, for example?

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10453 Andrew Norton Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:21:46 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10453 Johno - I agree with this. It was a suggestion made in the world of second-best options, in which we have a fairly standard bargain-basement education offered across all public universities. The best they can do in this situation is try to determine historical expenditure patterns, which Access Economics did earlier this year with a limited sample of unis and found that per student spending in some disciplines exceeds revenue from Commonwealth-supported students. Johno - I agree with this. It was a suggestion made in the world of second-best options, in which we have a fairly standard bargain-basement education offered across all public universities.

The best they can do in this situation is try to determine historical expenditure patterns, which Access Economics did earlier this year with a limited sample of unis and found that per student spending in some disciplines exceeds revenue from Commonwealth-supported students.

]]> By: johno http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10452 johno Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:03:19 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10452 Andrew While I agree wholeheartly with you about the need for price deregulation, I'm curious about the notion of 'Commonwealth contributions at rates matching real costs'. The Commonwealth doesn't know what the real costs are. Only the Universities know this and they have a strong incentive to say they are as high as they can get away with. If the government was to pay the real cost, the government would need to be running the unis and be responsible for paying the bills and making the decisions about what to spend the money on. If the govt doesn't run the Unis, then they can't pay the 'real cost'. They simply pay the Unis what they believe to be a reasonable price for the teaching the unis provide. The unis will then make spending decisions based on the income they expect to recieve. If the Unis can provide the teaching the govt requires at a cheaper cost than what the govt is paying, the unis make a profit. If not, they make a loss and will try to get out of having to provide that sort of teaching. Thinking about it in this way suggest to me that paying the 'real cost' is impossible. Just get rid of the price controls so students can pay the unis to provide them with the training they want. But I don't think you would disagree with doing that :-) Andrew

While I agree wholeheartly with you about the need for price deregulation, I’m curious about the notion of ‘Commonwealth contributions at rates matching real costs’.
The Commonwealth doesn’t know what the real costs are. Only the Universities know this and they have a strong incentive to say they are as high as they can get away with.
If the government was to pay the real cost, the government would need to be running the unis and be responsible for paying the bills and making the decisions about what to spend the money on.
If the govt doesn’t run the Unis, then they can’t pay the ‘real cost’. They simply pay the Unis what they believe to be a reasonable price for the teaching the unis provide. The unis will then make spending decisions based on the income they expect to recieve. If the Unis can provide the teaching the govt requires at a cheaper cost than what the govt is paying, the unis make a profit. If not, they make a loss and will try to get out of having to provide that sort of teaching.
Thinking about it in this way suggest to me that paying the ‘real cost’ is impossible. Just get rid of the price controls so students can pay the unis to provide them with the training they want. But I don’t think you would disagree with doing that :-)

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10461 Andrew Norton Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:02:23 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10461 Guy - Yes, they had far more than now in both 2001 and 2004. While I haven't kept records, I'd be surprised if there has been any election in the last generation in which Labor has offered less than it has this time for higher education- rather surprising given the expectations raised by the 'education revolution' rhetoric. They have offered more detail on the full-fee places today; my (negative) comments about it will with a bit of luck be in The Age tomorrow. Essentially, there is no compensation, just new Commonwealth-supported places, but no guarantee that we won't loses place in crucial disciplines. Guy - Yes, they had far more than now in both 2001 and 2004. While I haven’t kept records, I’d be surprised if there has been any election in the last generation in which Labor has offered less than it has this time for higher education- rather surprising given the expectations raised by the ‘education revolution’ rhetoric.

They have offered more detail on the full-fee places today; my (negative) comments about it will with a bit of luck be in The Age tomorrow.

Essentially, there is no compensation, just new Commonwealth-supported places, but no guarantee that we won’t loses place in crucial disciplines.

]]> By: Guy http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10446 Guy Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:51:27 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10446 Andrew, I think in previous campaigns (2001,2004), Labor in particular have placed more focus and emphasis on what they would do in relation to university funding if elected than during this election campaign. Even at the last election the question of VSU was a relatively visible policy talking point. Andrew, I think in previous campaigns (2001,2004), Labor in particular have placed more focus and emphasis on what they would do in relation to university funding if elected than during this election campaign.

Even at the last election the question of VSU was a relatively visible policy talking point.

]]> By: Andrew Elder http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10445 Andrew Elder Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:25:18 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10445 If ever there was a non-core issue for Labor, this has to be it. Expect a report in about twelve months and the current system to continue, with plenty of other issues to distract the attention of everyone but the indefatigable Norton. The only problem I can see with continuing full-fee education is if a "Dr Death"-style scandal were to recur an it was found that the doctor concerned was a full-fee-paying graduate. Apart from that, full-fee students walk among us; no full-fee students hang from mock-Gothic towers, the issue changes no more votes than funding private primary/secondary education. <blockquote>Strangely it seems that university reform has been completely backgrounded in this campaign by both major parties.</blockquote> Was there a time when it was foregrounded? Must have missed that. I don't remember John Dawkins going to a election promising to up-end higher education. If ever there was a non-core issue for Labor, this has to be it. Expect a report in about twelve months and the current system to continue, with plenty of other issues to distract the attention of everyone but the indefatigable Norton. The only problem I can see with continuing full-fee education is if a “Dr Death”-style scandal were to recur an it was found that the doctor concerned was a full-fee-paying graduate. Apart from that, full-fee students walk among us; no full-fee students hang from mock-Gothic towers, the issue changes no more votes than funding private primary/secondary education.

Strangely it seems that university reform has been completely backgrounded in this campaign by both major parties.

Was there a time when it was foregrounded? Must have missed that. I don’t remember John Dawkins going to a election promising to up-end higher education.

]]> By: Rajat Sood http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10460 Rajat Sood Thu, 22 Nov 2007 01:56:07 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/21/labors-full-fee-phase-out-policy-shambles-and-what-to-do-about-it/#comment-10460 Yeah, I suppose "drop" was my shorthand for "drop compared to what would have happened", which of course we cannot be certain of even if we had course-level data. But Andrew, I think in the past you have talked about universities not behaving in a rational profit-maximising manner (ie voluntarily refraining from earning revenues in excess of costs), so you may be right regardless. Sinclair, I agree there is loss surplus on both sides of the market, so both sides could claim a right to compensation if the places were not replaced. Yeah, I suppose “drop” was my shorthand for “drop compared to what would have happened”, which of course we cannot be certain of even if we had course-level data. But Andrew, I think in the past you have talked about universities not behaving in a rational profit-maximising manner (ie voluntarily refraining from earning revenues in excess of costs), so you may be right regardless.
Sinclair, I agree there is loss surplus on both sides of the market, so both sides could claim a right to compensation if the places were not replaced.

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