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	<title>Comments on: Social democratic liberal conservatives vs conservative liberal social democrats</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 06:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10628</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fred Argy/Andrew Norton



Despite the unprecedented and corrosive bile of the Luvvies and &lt;i&gt;Not Happy John&lt;/i&gt; (or what I call &lt;i&gt;Not Happy Now and Never Will Be&lt;/i&gt;) crowd, this is an enlightening analysis, that highlights just how close the two main parties are, and how remarkably cohesive Australian political values have been over the past generation.



Still, I remain confused about this weasel phrase "social democracy" just as I can never work out what people are talking about when they say they are interested in "social justice" issues. From my reading, what these people really mean is common garden variety Socialism.


Am I missing something? Please Explain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred Argy/Andrew Norton</p>
<p>Despite the unprecedented and corrosive bile of the Luvvies and <i>Not Happy John</i> (or what I call <i>Not Happy Now and Never Will Be</i>) crowd, this is an enlightening analysis, that highlights just how close the two main parties are, and how remarkably cohesive Australian political values have been over the past generation.</p>
<p>Still, I remain confused about this weasel phrase &#8220;social democracy&#8221; just as I can never work out what people are talking about when they say they are interested in &#8220;social justice&#8221; issues. From my reading, what these people really mean is common garden variety Socialism.</p>
<p>Am I missing something? Please Explain.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10665</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10665</guid>
		<description>I wonder what the shares of Google (or Microsoft, Cisco, etc) would be worth if they only reflected the value of land upon which the Googleplex resides? I suspect about 1% of the current price. Time to go short, Yendis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder what the shares of Google (or Microsoft, Cisco, etc) would be worth if they only reflected the value of land upon which the Googleplex resides? I suspect about 1% of the current price. Time to go short, Yendis?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10664</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10664</guid>
		<description>A tax on land and land alone, eh?

Yendis while you have the 1936 EOD open you may want to look up the term 'Physiocrat'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A tax on land and land alone, eh?</p>
<p>Yendis while you have the 1936 EOD open you may want to look up the term &#8216;Physiocrat&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Yendis</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10663</link>
		<dc:creator>Yendis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10663</guid>
		<description>I always thought I was a Liberal: but there are few of them about. The reference used is The EOD circa 1936, my fathers copy. Landguage changes over time and certainly ideologies are forgotten.
Liberals (note the capitalisation) were concerned with the distribution of wealth. A matter which has been alluded to in several items above, but carefully avoided in anything specific. For it is when we get down to specifics that the hip pocket nerve begins to display its, generally, superior abilities over the brain.
The mal-distribution of wealth is the major inequality in our society.  The only source of wealth that human labour has is the planet, the Earth, the land. That is owned by about 5% of the worlds population. That is a big wrong. The biggest wrong there is. This land ownership is what makes corporations so powerful (rich in $$).
We need to collect the rental value of land in place of all the other 156 taxing points across Australia. Then, even houses would become affordable to many who only dream of such these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought I was a Liberal: but there are few of them about. The reference used is The EOD circa 1936, my fathers copy. Landguage changes over time and certainly ideologies are forgotten.<br />
Liberals (note the capitalisation) were concerned with the distribution of wealth. A matter which has been alluded to in several items above, but carefully avoided in anything specific. For it is when we get down to specifics that the hip pocket nerve begins to display its, generally, superior abilities over the brain.<br />
The mal-distribution of wealth is the major inequality in our society.  The only source of wealth that human labour has is the planet, the Earth, the land. That is owned by about 5% of the worlds population. That is a big wrong. The biggest wrong there is. This land ownership is what makes corporations so powerful (rich in $$).<br />
We need to collect the rental value of land in place of all the other 156 taxing points across Australia. Then, even houses would become affordable to many who only dream of such these days.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10662</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10662</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that offer, Fred. I've emailed you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that offer, Fred. I&#8217;ve emailed you.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10661</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10661</guid>
		<description>Rajat, I have written a book on the subject. It is called Equality of Opportunity in Australia: myths and reality". If you don't want to waste your money on it, I will gladly email you a copy if you send me your email address (mine is fargy@ozemail.com.au). I think you will find it covers all your queries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rajat, I have written a book on the subject. It is called Equality of Opportunity in Australia: myths and reality&#8221;. If you don&#8217;t want to waste your money on it, I will gladly email you a copy if you send me your email address (mine is <a href="mailto:fargy@ozemail.com.au">fargy@ozemail.com.au</a>). I think you will find it covers all your queries.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10639</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10639</guid>
		<description>I agree with JC's comment on Fred's use of the expression "equality of opportunity" in contradistinction to "equality of outcomes". Fred, what do you mean? We already largely have equality of opportunity - it could always be increased of course, but the fact is that anyone of merit can go to school and university without paying up-front fees, can access free health services, including necessary drugs, take subsidised public transport, and get a job in a buoyant economy in order to pay their rent (which is only 3% of the value of the property in which they are living). Life is sweeter in this country for those without means than it ever has been. What is opportunity falling down at present outside of indigenous society? I struggle to understand what you are after except simply more redistribution. Why can't the masses of tax now being paid by individuals and corporates in this country be returned to the citizens?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with JC&#8217;s comment on Fred&#8217;s use of the expression &#8220;equality of opportunity&#8221; in contradistinction to &#8220;equality of outcomes&#8221;. Fred, what do you mean? We already largely have equality of opportunity - it could always be increased of course, but the fact is that anyone of merit can go to school and university without paying up-front fees, can access free health services, including necessary drugs, take subsidised public transport, and get a job in a buoyant economy in order to pay their rent (which is only 3% of the value of the property in which they are living). Life is sweeter in this country for those without means than it ever has been. What is opportunity falling down at present outside of indigenous society? I struggle to understand what you are after except simply more redistribution. Why can&#8217;t the masses of tax now being paid by individuals and corporates in this country be returned to the citizens?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10660</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10660</guid>
		<description>Good on you Derek Sheppard!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good on you Derek Sheppard!</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10638</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2007/11/27/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10638</guid>
		<description>Andrew, with your indulgence, can I please respond to two of the comments on my short contribution (Andrew Elder’s and JC’s), even though I am straying from your main topic?

ANDREW ELDER, I agree that private ownership of social infrastructure, like public-private partnerships, can often work well and deliver better results for taxpayers and users. What I object to is the presumption that private ownership is always better than public ownership - which is what the freeze on tax levels and on public debt implies. Reliance on private ownership of infrastructure makes sense only if
o	the project risks are predominantly commercial in character,
o	there is a genuine transfer of risk,
o	there is sufficient contestability in financing and service markets,
o	private ownership improves managerial performance
o	it does not create distortions in resource allocation (e.g in usage of roads) or bias against social infrastructure

These conditions do generally apply for self-funding economic infrastructure but they do not always apply to social investment.

---
JC, I have never advocated adopting the Scandinavian model lock, stock and barrel. I have only argued that instead of moving slowly and gradually towards the US model we should tip toe towards the Scandinavian model of equality of opportunity. Despite what Americans think, the US has less income mobility and the battlers have less opportunity for advancement than the Scandinavians and the smaller European countries.

As to which direction Australians want to move, Andrew Norton is the expert but my assessment is that when Australians are simply asked (in polls) if they want lower taxes, there is always a majority saying yes. But when they are asked to express a preference for lower taxes relative to additional spending on such things as health, education and the environment, the responses are much more positive for spending. I suspect however Australians lean towards universalism rather than the targeted spending I advocate.

On government borrowing, it is true that there is probably some public hostility. But this is because politicians misleadingly call it a budget deficit and equate it with bad management and higher interest rates. Australians would respond much more positively if
•	government borrowing were linked specifically to particular investment projects;
•	the benefits (shorter commuting times, fewer accident risks, improved power availability and water quality etc.) were clearly spelt out;
•	 they were told that government borrowing for investment purposes is prudentially sound and that, if fiscal policy was well managed, it would have no  adverse effects on interest rates.

By setting arbitrary fiscal targets, governments are restricting their own ability to respond to the preferences and expectations of the community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, with your indulgence, can I please respond to two of the comments on my short contribution (Andrew Elder’s and JC’s), even though I am straying from your main topic?</p>
<p>ANDREW ELDER, I agree that private ownership of social infrastructure, like public-private partnerships, can often work well and deliver better results for taxpayers and users. What I object to is the presumption that private ownership is always better than public ownership - which is what the freeze on tax levels and on public debt implies. Reliance on private ownership of infrastructure makes sense only if<br />
o	the project risks are predominantly commercial in character,<br />
o	there is a genuine transfer of risk,<br />
o	there is sufficient contestability in financing and service markets,<br />
o	private ownership improves managerial performance<br />
o	it does not create distortions in resource allocation (e.g in usage of roads) or bias against social infrastructure</p>
<p>These conditions do generally apply for self-funding economic infrastructure but they do not always apply to social investment.</p>
<p>&#8212;<br />
JC, I have never advocated adopting the Scandinavian model lock, stock and barrel. I have only argued that instead of moving slowly and gradually towards the US model we should tip toe towards the Scandinavian model of equality of opportunity. Despite what Americans think, the US has less income mobility and the battlers have less opportunity for advancement than the Scandinavians and the smaller European countries.</p>
<p>As to which direction Australians want to move, Andrew Norton is the expert but my assessment is that when Australians are simply asked (in polls) if they want lower taxes, there is always a majority saying yes. But when they are asked to express a preference for lower taxes relative to additional spending on such things as health, education and the environment, the responses are much more positive for spending. I suspect however Australians lean towards universalism rather than the targeted spending I advocate.</p>
<p>On government borrowing, it is true that there is probably some public hostility. But this is because politicians misleadingly call it a budget deficit and equate it with bad management and higher interest rates. Australians would respond much more positively if<br />
•	government borrowing were linked specifically to particular investment projects;<br />
•	the benefits (shorter commuting times, fewer accident risks, improved power availability and water quality etc.) were clearly spelt out;<br />
•	 they were told that government borrowing for investment purposes is prudentially sound and that, if fiscal policy was well managed, it would have no  adverse effects on interest rates.</p>
<p>By setting arbitrary fiscal targets, governments are restricting their own ability to respond to the preferences and expectations of the community.</p>
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		<title>By: Jc</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2007/11/social-democratic-liberal-conservatives-vs-conservative-liberal-social-democrats/#comment-10659</link>
		<dc:creator>Jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>you're right, Croc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you&#8217;re right, Croc.</p>
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