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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;Social cohesion&#8217;, a euphemism for intolerance</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-26022</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 04:08:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-26022</guid>
		<description>Jack - The 2005 Australian Survey of Social Attitudes found that people who had been to non-government schools were about 50% more likely to be active members of voluntary associations than those who had been to government schools. It's hard to know what role the school plays in this; being religious and being educated are also positively correlated with volunteering.

The public school lobby may well concede this point, but argue that private school graduates are weak on 'bridging' social capital, ie between groups (this is a claim made in Bonnor and Caro's The Stupid Country). The volunteering may be for in-groups such as church bodies. But the public school lobby have no evidence for this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack - The 2005 Australian Survey of Social Attitudes found that people who had been to non-government schools were about 50% more likely to be active members of voluntary associations than those who had been to government schools. It&#8217;s hard to know what role the school plays in this; being religious and being educated are also positively correlated with volunteering.</p>
<p>The public school lobby may well concede this point, but argue that private school graduates are weak on &#8216;bridging&#8217; social capital, ie between groups (this is a claim made in Bonnor and Caro&#8217;s The Stupid Country). The volunteering may be for in-groups such as church bodies. But the public school lobby have no evidence for this.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Strocchi</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-26007</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Strocchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-26007</guid>
		<description>Andrew Norton says: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Empirically, neither of the Age articles provide any evidence that religious groups are undermining social cohesion, other than by inspiring anti-religious sentiment in McGaw and Samway. Nothing on their atittudes; in my research on this people who have been to private schools do not differ significantly in their beliefs from people who went to government schools.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/i&gt;

My observation is that graduates of private religious schools, be they ever so humble, are more likely to promote the accumulation of social capital ie be joiners than others. Private religious schools promote social cohesion much more than public irreligious schools.

Students who emerge from such an environment will tend to be more prone to participate in team sports, voluntarism, enlist in the services and all the other daggy patriotic stuff that is considered old-hat by cosmopolitan po-mo liberals. That is  because they emphasize school spirit, teamwork, uniformity &#38; "not letting the side down". 

I have no evidence to support this apart from anecdote. (The situation of public schools in country areas is obviously different.) Evidence anyone?

Social cohesion generates a public good - trust - which promotes social efficiency. It is a good that liberals have always had a hard time getting their head around owing to the historic contentions b/w modernist liberalism and the traditional social coherers: Church, State &#38; Family. (AKA God, King &#38; Country).

You cant blame Locke &#38; Hume for being a bit suspicious of over-mighty subjects, zealous priests and the like. What with civil wars &#38; sectarianism. (Hobbes was suspicious of liberalisms anarchic tendencies which makes him more apt these days.)

But there is no excuse for this these days in our parish. Big Brother and Papism are distant memories.

Modernist liberals, although uneasy about the Church, understood that the only way that the self-seeking appetites unleashed by catallactic capitalism and democratic statism could be curbed was by encouraging public "civilism".

The most obvious creator &#38; conduit of such an attitude are religious schools. THey accumulate social capital, having an eye on eternity and long run returns. The more sensible liberals, such as Burke, Smith &#38; Hayek, always knew that religiously inspired empathy for others undergirds the Open Society.

Post-modern liberalism is a totally self-centred (where "selves" often have an economic or ethnic identity) philosophy. It creates moral disaster zones wherever it is taken seriously (Masters of the Universe, home boyz in the hood).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew Norton says: </p>
<blockquote><p><i>Empirically, neither of the Age articles provide any evidence that religious groups are undermining social cohesion, other than by inspiring anti-religious sentiment in McGaw and Samway. Nothing on their atittudes; in my research on this people who have been to private schools do not differ significantly in their beliefs from people who went to government schools.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>My observation is that graduates of private religious schools, be they ever so humble, are more likely to promote the accumulation of social capital ie be joiners than others. Private religious schools promote social cohesion much more than public irreligious schools.</p>
<p>Students who emerge from such an environment will tend to be more prone to participate in team sports, voluntarism, enlist in the services and all the other daggy patriotic stuff that is considered old-hat by cosmopolitan po-mo liberals. That is  because they emphasize school spirit, teamwork, uniformity &amp; &#8220;not letting the side down&#8221;. </p>
<p>I have no evidence to support this apart from anecdote. (The situation of public schools in country areas is obviously different.) Evidence anyone?</p>
<p>Social cohesion generates a public good - trust - which promotes social efficiency. It is a good that liberals have always had a hard time getting their head around owing to the historic contentions b/w modernist liberalism and the traditional social coherers: Church, State &amp; Family. (AKA God, King &amp; Country).</p>
<p>You cant blame Locke &amp; Hume for being a bit suspicious of over-mighty subjects, zealous priests and the like. What with civil wars &amp; sectarianism. (Hobbes was suspicious of liberalisms anarchic tendencies which makes him more apt these days.)</p>
<p>But there is no excuse for this these days in our parish. Big Brother and Papism are distant memories.</p>
<p>Modernist liberals, although uneasy about the Church, understood that the only way that the self-seeking appetites unleashed by catallactic capitalism and democratic statism could be curbed was by encouraging public &#8220;civilism&#8221;.</p>
<p>The most obvious creator &amp; conduit of such an attitude are religious schools. THey accumulate social capital, having an eye on eternity and long run returns. The more sensible liberals, such as Burke, Smith &amp; Hayek, always knew that religiously inspired empathy for others undergirds the Open Society.</p>
<p>Post-modern liberalism is a totally self-centred (where &#8220;selves&#8221; often have an economic or ethnic identity) philosophy. It creates moral disaster zones wherever it is taken seriously (Masters of the Universe, home boyz in the hood).</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Does religion make you happy?</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-14456</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Does religion make you happy?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 12:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-14456</guid>
		<description>[...] The difficulty for unhappy atheists is that they can&#8217;t just decide to become religious the way they might decide to get out more or join a volunteer group. So that religious people tend to be happier is not very useful information for those who do not believe and want to improve their well-being. But it is perhaps reason not to be an ideological atheist. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The difficulty for unhappy atheists is that they can&#8217;t just decide to become religious the way they might decide to get out more or join a volunteer group. So that religious people tend to be happier is not very useful information for those who do not believe and want to improve their well-being. But it is perhaps reason not to be an ideological atheist. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robyn</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12949</link>
		<dc:creator>Robyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12949</guid>
		<description>Last time I took the census, HUMANISM was given as an example of a religion.  What Louise Samway and Barry McGaw really mean is that only their religion -secular evolutionary humanism-is acceptable.  So it looks like people all over the world can call off the search for the meaning of life... we needed only to ask a leftist government bureaucrat to enlighten us with their "agreed values."  Looks like the labor party have picked up more from China than just Rudd's Mandarin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last time I took the census, HUMANISM was given as an example of a religion.  What Louise Samway and Barry McGaw really mean is that only their religion -secular evolutionary humanism-is acceptable.  So it looks like people all over the world can call off the search for the meaning of life&#8230; we needed only to ask a leftist government bureaucrat to enlighten us with their &#8220;agreed values.&#8221;  Looks like the labor party have picked up more from China than just Rudd&#8217;s Mandarin.</p>
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		<title>By: Jage</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12137</link>
		<dc:creator>Jage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12137</guid>
		<description>Leon

Ah, they are supoosed to be public socialists first, not elitist carpetbaggers who insist on depriving the lower orders of choice in education, even though they themselves would rather catch public transport than subject their own children to the public comprehensive schools they run.

Keating a public Anglican?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leon</p>
<p>Ah, they are supoosed to be public socialists first, not elitist carpetbaggers who insist on depriving the lower orders of choice in education, even though they themselves would rather catch public transport than subject their own children to the public comprehensive schools they run.</p>
<p>Keating a public Anglican?</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12136</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12136</guid>
		<description>Jage, I don't think they are seperable. Once you have multi ethnic/racial societies, you need to think about what to do and what produces the best outcomes (potentially nothing -- but in Australia's case, which does have good outcomes, multiculturalism). In addition, I have no idea why you think the US doesn't have multicultural policies (what about affirmative action, for example? -- you should try filling in US bureacratic forms), and I've no idea why you think poor ethnic./racial groups having difficulties is peculiar to France -- have you not heard of aboriginals in Australia, blacks in the US, Bangladeshis in the UK, Turks in Germany and so on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jage, I don&#8217;t think they are seperable. Once you have multi ethnic/racial societies, you need to think about what to do and what produces the best outcomes (potentially nothing &#8212; but in Australia&#8217;s case, which does have good outcomes, multiculturalism). In addition, I have no idea why you think the US doesn&#8217;t have multicultural policies (what about affirmative action, for example? &#8212; you should try filling in US bureacratic forms), and I&#8217;ve no idea why you think poor ethnic./racial groups having difficulties is peculiar to France &#8212; have you not heard of aboriginals in Australia, blacks in the US, Bangladeshis in the UK, Turks in Germany and so on?</p>
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		<title>By: Jage</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12135</link>
		<dc:creator>Jage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12135</guid>
		<description>conrad

You are conflating multiculturalism and a multi racial/ethnic immigration policy. France's probelms are caused by a number of things, most of which are peculiar to the particular ethno-religious group that makes up close to ten percent of the population.

The US does not have multiculti and it is the most successful example of multi ethnic/racial immigration policies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>conrad</p>
<p>You are conflating multiculturalism and a multi racial/ethnic immigration policy. France&#8217;s probelms are caused by a number of things, most of which are peculiar to the particular ethno-religious group that makes up close to ten percent of the population.</p>
<p>The US does not have multiculti and it is the most successful example of multi ethnic/racial immigration policies.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12134</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12134</guid>
		<description>Rafe,

I've no doubt its a tricky questions, but we already do this -- its just where the division lies. Uncontroversial examples include, for example, educating doctors/high risk groups about identifying various disorders that occur in some populations and not others (or are you saying the government shouldn't have targetted, say, gay groups with the AIDS campagin, young white males for stupid car driving, or doctors for symptom X that occurs mainly in ethnic group Y) . In addition, I think there is a division between spending money on educating groups about other's beliefs versus  giving groups money for certain activities of which they are the main and esssentially only beneficiaries (which we also already do).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rafe,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve no doubt its a tricky questions, but we already do this &#8212; its just where the division lies. Uncontroversial examples include, for example, educating doctors/high risk groups about identifying various disorders that occur in some populations and not others (or are you saying the government shouldn&#8217;t have targetted, say, gay groups with the AIDS campagin, young white males for stupid car driving, or doctors for symptom X that occurs mainly in ethnic group Y) . In addition, I think there is a division between spending money on educating groups about other&#8217;s beliefs versus  giving groups money for certain activities of which they are the main and esssentially only beneficiaries (which we also already do).</p>
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12133</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12133</guid>
		<description>Just rediscovered a heavy reference to back up the idea of a common framework within which people can go their different ways in harmony. It is John Gray's book "Two Faces of Liberalism" (2000). I thought he went a bit mad when he gave up classical liberalism and at first sight this reads like a defence of relativism but it is a rejoinder to people who want a kind of coercive cohesion.  A similar idea is dropped in Hayek "Why I am not a conservative'. Gray's term is "modus vivendi'.

"Modus vivendi expresses the belief that there are many forms of life in which humans can thrive. Among these ther are some whose worth cannot be compared. Where such ways of life are rivals, this is no one of them that is best. People who belong to different ways of life need have no disagreement. The aim of modus vivendi cannot be to still the conflict of values. It is to reconcile individuals and ways of life honouring conflicting values to a life in common. We do not need common values in order to live together in peace. We need common institutions in which many forms of life can coexist."

Conrad, as soon as you start spending public funds on particular groups that are identified by race, colour or ethnicity you are on a slippery slide to a very divisive situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just rediscovered a heavy reference to back up the idea of a common framework within which people can go their different ways in harmony. It is John Gray&#8217;s book &#8220;Two Faces of Liberalism&#8221; (2000). I thought he went a bit mad when he gave up classical liberalism and at first sight this reads like a defence of relativism but it is a rejoinder to people who want a kind of coercive cohesion.  A similar idea is dropped in Hayek &#8220;Why I am not a conservative&#8217;. Gray&#8217;s term is &#8220;modus vivendi&#8217;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Modus vivendi expresses the belief that there are many forms of life in which humans can thrive. Among these ther are some whose worth cannot be compared. Where such ways of life are rivals, this is no one of them that is best. People who belong to different ways of life need have no disagreement. The aim of modus vivendi cannot be to still the conflict of values. It is to reconcile individuals and ways of life honouring conflicting values to a life in common. We do not need common values in order to live together in peace. We need common institutions in which many forms of life can coexist.&#8221;</p>
<p>Conrad, as soon as you start spending public funds on particular groups that are identified by race, colour or ethnicity you are on a slippery slide to a very divisive situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Sinclair Davidson</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/02/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12132</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinclair Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/02/25/social-cohesion-a-euphemism-for-intolerance/#comment-12132</guid>
		<description>I'd like to add to Spiros' comment at #16. It is possible to think that religion is, on balance, a good thing for society and still be an atheist. In contrast though it is a very useful distinction, ideological atheists and liberal atheists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to add to Spiros&#8217; comment at #16. It is possible to think that religion is, on balance, a good thing for society and still be an atheist. In contrast though it is a very useful distinction, ideological atheists and liberal atheists.</p>
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