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	<title>Comments on: Could plastic bag use rise 40% in one year?</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: procrustes</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12434</link>
		<dc:creator>procrustes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12434</guid>
		<description>Andrew

I agree the quality of these numbers is not brilliant.  But the particular problem you allude to (lumpiness of import data) would apply whether it was tonnage or bag numbers.  Also, the previous data were built up from both imports (about three quarters of bags) and local production (about one quarter), so there is less scope for this being an issue.

I also agree that there are incentives for these numbers being unreliable - but I still maintain that there expiry of the industry code would be a reasonable explanation for some turn around in the decline (and I do agree that forty percent growth is still a whopping turnaround).

I wonder whether composition is a factor.  The original report assumed 5.5g a bag.  The ten bags I had in my pantry tonight weighed an average 8g each.  So if my (major supermarket) bags were more representative of bags used by Australian we would be using 3.3b now, not the 4.8 they estimate.  And if 8g was more representative in 2002, we would have used 4b not 6b bags.  Plenty of room for composition effects to distort the trends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew</p>
<p>I agree the quality of these numbers is not brilliant.  But the particular problem you allude to (lumpiness of import data) would apply whether it was tonnage or bag numbers.  Also, the previous data were built up from both imports (about three quarters of bags) and local production (about one quarter), so there is less scope for this being an issue.</p>
<p>I also agree that there are incentives for these numbers being unreliable - but I still maintain that there expiry of the industry code would be a reasonable explanation for some turn around in the decline (and I do agree that forty percent growth is still a whopping turnaround).</p>
<p>I wonder whether composition is a factor.  The original report assumed 5.5g a bag.  The ten bags I had in my pantry tonight weighed an average 8g each.  So if my (major supermarket) bags were more representative of bags used by Australian we would be using 3.3b now, not the 4.8 they estimate.  And if 8g was more representative in 2002, we would have used 4b not 6b bags.  Plenty of room for composition effects to distort the trends.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete from Perth</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12446</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete from Perth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 05:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12446</guid>
		<description>If it's a choice between people using their biodegradable shopping bags for their household bin rubbish and buying non-biodegradable bin liners, it makes more sense to encourage the use of disposable shopping bags than discourage them.

A far more productive target for the reduction of plastic waste is in the packaging industry: so many things are wrapped in heavy plastic shells, contain superfluous non-degradable or recyclable plastic bags, and are then placed in boxes. So unnecessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#8217;s a choice between people using their biodegradable shopping bags for their household bin rubbish and buying non-biodegradable bin liners, it makes more sense to encourage the use of disposable shopping bags than discourage them.</p>
<p>A far more productive target for the reduction of plastic waste is in the packaging industry: so many things are wrapped in heavy plastic shells, contain superfluous non-degradable or recyclable plastic bags, and are then placed in boxes. So unnecessary.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12445</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 02:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12445</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

they're quite popular in some parts of Melbourne (yuppie environment syndrome -- the 15.0L/100K Toorak tractor is fine but the bags arn't -- I doubt this exists in Broome), and some places would like to phase them out completely. I'm in the same position as Andrew in that if they don't give them to me at all (I collect about 50% of my groceries with them -- the rest go into my backpack), I'm just going to buy them for my rubbish anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>they&#8217;re quite popular in some parts of Melbourne (yuppie environment syndrome &#8212; the 15.0L/100K Toorak tractor is fine but the bags arn&#8217;t &#8212; I doubt this exists in Broome), and some places would like to phase them out completely. I&#8217;m in the same position as Andrew in that if they don&#8217;t give them to me at all (I collect about 50% of my groceries with them &#8212; the rest go into my backpack), I&#8217;m just going to buy them for my rubbish anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Rennie</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12444</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Rennie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 01:47:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12444</guid>
		<description>I don't know about the rest of the country but I never see anyone else use  green bags in either Coles or Woolworths in Broome.  I suggest that the best incentive would be a rebate rather than a charge for not using plastic bags. It's over to the big 2 really. The 40% drop off is easily explained as the initial campaign has all but disappeared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about the rest of the country but I never see anyone else use  green bags in either Coles or Woolworths in Broome.  I suggest that the best incentive would be a rebate rather than a charge for not using plastic bags. It&#8217;s over to the big 2 really. The 40% drop off is easily explained as the initial campaign has all but disappeared.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12443</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12443</guid>
		<description>Procrustes - I'm sure the envangelists who run plastic bag policy are trying to whip up hysteria, but unless they are fabricating the numbers that can't explain a 40% increase (and you would think the the rational propagandist would think up a more plausible increase than 40%). And if that code of conduct expired in 2005, why was there another big drop in 2006, followed by a surge in 2007? Maybe it is just the inner Melbourne market, but the supermarkets in my area are still actively working to reduce plastic bag use, with the canvas bags prominently placed neared the check outs and staff asking if customers want a bag when they only have a small number of items.

I can't find this latest report on the web, but it's clear that the earlier numbers are pretty dodgy, using such methods as extrapolating numbers of bags from bag imports as measured by tonnage. This creates obvious problems in when the imports arrive - if for example a large shipment that would normally have arrived in December 2006 instead arrived in January 2007 that would help explain why 2006 was low and 2007 high, with no implications for actual bag consumption.

Also, it requires an estimate of bag weight. If as is likely the light bags used by supermarkets are declining as a % of all bags the average weight of bags should be increased, leading to a lower total number of bags in the estimates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Procrustes - I&#8217;m sure the envangelists who run plastic bag policy are trying to whip up hysteria, but unless they are fabricating the numbers that can&#8217;t explain a 40% increase (and you would think the the rational propagandist would think up a more plausible increase than 40%). And if that code of conduct expired in 2005, why was there another big drop in 2006, followed by a surge in 2007? Maybe it is just the inner Melbourne market, but the supermarkets in my area are still actively working to reduce plastic bag use, with the canvas bags prominently placed neared the check outs and staff asking if customers want a bag when they only have a small number of items.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t find this latest report on the web, but it&#8217;s clear that the earlier numbers are pretty dodgy, using such methods as extrapolating numbers of bags from bag imports as measured by tonnage. This creates obvious problems in when the imports arrive - if for example a large shipment that would normally have arrived in December 2006 instead arrived in January 2007 that would help explain why 2006 was low and 2007 high, with no implications for actual bag consumption.</p>
<p>Also, it requires an estimate of bag weight. If as is likely the light bags used by supermarkets are declining as a % of all bags the average weight of bags should be increased, leading to a lower total number of bags in the estimates.</p>
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		<title>By: procrustes</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12442</link>
		<dc:creator>procrustes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 22:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12442</guid>
		<description>Andrew, I'd normally agree with you on using the "does it look right?" test on these numbers.

However, one input into a theory behind these numbers is that the Australian Retailers Association Code of Practice for the Management of Plastic Bags expired at the end of 2005.  This code (http://www.ara.com.au/fileadmin/sitesections/policy/codes/ARABAGCOde.pdf ) aimed to reduce use by 50% by 2005 through retailers undertaking consumer awareness campaigns, promoting re-usable bags and staff training.  I don’t think they were obliged to actively do anything after 2005.

Still, a 40% rise in one year is pretty big – but it just returns per capita use in 2007 (on these reported numbers to 230 each) the same level as in 2004 (about 235 per person).

What does all this mean?  In spite of greenie propaganda about almost non-existent impacts on sealife (greenmail) and government intervention (greentape), industry self -regulation (greenwash) does the wise old Australian consumer actually like plastic bags?

Based on the numbers in the article and previously published figures plastic bag use in Australia from 2002 to 2007 would be about:

Year     bags (billion)
2002     5.95
2003     5.2
2004     4.7
2005     3.9
2006     3.36
2007     4.84

One theory: the numbers are right but the evangelists who run plastic bag policy are trying to whip up hysteria?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, I&#8217;d normally agree with you on using the &#8220;does it look right?&#8221; test on these numbers.</p>
<p>However, one input into a theory behind these numbers is that the Australian Retailers Association Code of Practice for the Management of Plastic Bags expired at the end of 2005.  This code (http://www.ara.com.au/fileadmin/sitesections/policy/codes/ARABAGCOde.pdf ) aimed to reduce use by 50% by 2005 through retailers undertaking consumer awareness campaigns, promoting re-usable bags and staff training.  I don’t think they were obliged to actively do anything after 2005.</p>
<p>Still, a 40% rise in one year is pretty big – but it just returns per capita use in 2007 (on these reported numbers to 230 each) the same level as in 2004 (about 235 per person).</p>
<p>What does all this mean?  In spite of greenie propaganda about almost non-existent impacts on sealife (greenmail) and government intervention (greentape), industry self -regulation (greenwash) does the wise old Australian consumer actually like plastic bags?</p>
<p>Based on the numbers in the article and previously published figures plastic bag use in Australia from 2002 to 2007 would be about:</p>
<p>Year     bags (billion)<br />
2002     5.95<br />
2003     5.2<br />
2004     4.7<br />
2005     3.9<br />
2006     3.36<br />
2007     4.84</p>
<p>One theory: the numbers are right but the evangelists who run plastic bag policy are trying to whip up hysteria?</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro S</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12441</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12441</guid>
		<description>The politicians are presumably into it for the politics, but the enviro-mums are in it for the 'sacrifice'.

Rudd's team are good at this kind of distraction. The 'alcohol violence crisis', the 'homeless crisis' and anything else they can find. It's politically pretty savvy.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle the larger and more expensive issue of carbon emissions. Presumably by promising something for another government in the future. the Blair/Brown government's response. Hopefully they'll read some Bjorn Lomborg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The politicians are presumably into it for the politics, but the enviro-mums are in it for the &#8217;sacrifice&#8217;.</p>
<p>Rudd&#8217;s team are good at this kind of distraction. The &#8216;alcohol violence crisis&#8217;, the &#8216;homeless crisis&#8217; and anything else they can find. It&#8217;s politically pretty savvy.</p>
<p>It&#8217;ll be interesting to see how they handle the larger and more expensive issue of carbon emissions. Presumably by promising something for another government in the future. the Blair/Brown government&#8217;s response. Hopefully they&#8217;ll read some Bjorn Lomborg.</p>
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		<title>By: ken nielsen</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12440</link>
		<dc:creator>ken nielsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12440</guid>
		<description>If it feels wrong, it probably is wrong.
Someone has leaked this so it reflects a fight in the bureaucracy.
Any ban will be wildly unpopular and it would be very surprising   if Rudd spends so much goodwill on a low order issue like this.
So I guess Garrett and those sympathetic to him are scrambling  to stay in control of the issue.
It will be fun to watch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it feels wrong, it probably is wrong.<br />
Someone has leaked this so it reflects a fight in the bureaucracy.<br />
Any ban will be wildly unpopular and it would be very surprising   if Rudd spends so much goodwill on a low order issue like this.<br />
So I guess Garrett and those sympathetic to him are scrambling  to stay in control of the issue.<br />
It will be fun to watch.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12439</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 04:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12439</guid>
		<description>I don't think its enviro-religion -- I think its just politics --there are far more serious environmental concerns than plastic bags. I'm sure on a list of worries, plastic bags must way down the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think its enviro-religion &#8212; I think its just politics &#8211;there are far more serious environmental concerns than plastic bags. I&#8217;m sure on a list of worries, plastic bags must way down the list.</p>
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		<title>By: Rajat Sood</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/03/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12438</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajat Sood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/03/20/could-plastic-bag-use-rise-40-in-one-year/#comment-12438</guid>
		<description>I'm with Rafe. This is pure enviro-religion. The only way I can think of that the number of bags could have gone up *at all* is that supermarkets somehow massively increased the use of multiple bags for reinforcement when bagging heavy items. But a 40% increase is nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Rafe. This is pure enviro-religion. The only way I can think of that the number of bags could have gone up *at all* is that supermarkets somehow massively increased the use of multiple bags for reinforcement when bagging heavy items. But a 40% increase is nonsense.</p>
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