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	<title>Comments on: Social cohesion survives Howard, multiculturalism etc etc</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton&#039;s Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 23:27:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Dervish &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Social Cohesion</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12910</link>
		<dc:creator>Dervish &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Social Cohesion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12910</guid>
		<description>[...] Andrew Norton has a post up on the release of Prof. Andrew Markus&#8217; report on social cohesion. Without detracting from the excellent work of Prof. Markus (for whom I have lectured on occasion) I actually prefer the term social recognition. Howard and the neo-liberals were very fond of pushing a notion of national identity that is the social &#8216;glue&#8217; that binds Australian citizens. I think national identity, however, is not enough, particularly given the global consciousness that we need to develop to address issues such as environmental problems, viral pandemics, minimising terrorism as much as possible etc. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Andrew Norton has a post up on the release of Prof. Andrew Markus&#8217; report on social cohesion. Without detracting from the excellent work of Prof. Markus (for whom I have lectured on occasion) I actually prefer the term social recognition. Howard and the neo-liberals were very fond of pushing a notion of national identity that is the social &#8216;glue&#8217; that binds Australian citizens. I think national identity, however, is not enough, particularly given the global consciousness that we need to develop to address issues such as environmental problems, viral pandemics, minimising terrorism as much as possible etc. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Umm Yasmin</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12901</link>
		<dc:creator>Umm Yasmin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12901</guid>
		<description>G&#039;day,
I know Prof. Markus and have had the opportunity to hear him present on this research, which was very interesting. I&#039;m doing research specifically on Australian Muslims with a focus on issues to do with social inclusion and social recognition.

The ME migrants largely came out in the sixties and seventies and filled blue-collar jobs. It is their children who make up the biggest percentage of Australian-born Muslims, but the job market has shifted since then.  We are becoming a post-industrial society. So, as Robin Murray has noted &quot;key forms of autonomy (and social inclusion?) are no longer based on the nation state, but are instead established at the level of
consumer, communities and production systems.&quot; (in O&#039;Brien et.al. _Poverty and Social Exclusion: North and South, IDS Working Paper 55, 1997)

Possibly because Muslim migrants come from so many different ethnic, language and national backgrounds, it is religion they share in common, and which becomes their marker of difference. Whereas for Asians migrating to Australia, their markers of difference are more ethnic and language based rather than religion. Perhaps Asians are more ready to perceive racial discrimination because it is their major marker of difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G&#8217;day,<br />
I know Prof. Markus and have had the opportunity to hear him present on this research, which was very interesting. I&#8217;m doing research specifically on Australian Muslims with a focus on issues to do with social inclusion and social recognition.</p>
<p>The ME migrants largely came out in the sixties and seventies and filled blue-collar jobs. It is their children who make up the biggest percentage of Australian-born Muslims, but the job market has shifted since then.  We are becoming a post-industrial society. So, as Robin Murray has noted &#8220;key forms of autonomy (and social inclusion?) are no longer based on the nation state, but are instead established at the level of<br />
consumer, communities and production systems.&#8221; (in O&#8217;Brien et.al. _Poverty and Social Exclusion: North and South, IDS Working Paper 55, 1997)</p>
<p>Possibly because Muslim migrants come from so many different ethnic, language and national backgrounds, it is religion they share in common, and which becomes their marker of difference. Whereas for Asians migrating to Australia, their markers of difference are more ethnic and language based rather than religion. Perhaps Asians are more ready to perceive racial discrimination because it is their major marker of difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Chester</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12891</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Chester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12891</guid>
		<description>NPOV;

That was my fault. Not deliberate I assure you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NPOV;</p>
<p>That was my fault. Not deliberate I assure you.</p>
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		<title>By: monaro</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12888</link>
		<dc:creator>monaro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12888</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;testing...&lt;/i&gt;

Here&#039;s what the SMH report says...

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://news.smh.com.au/new-study-reveals-immigration-concerns/20080422-27oh.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The&lt;/a&gt; Mapping Social Cohesion survey found that 51.3 per cent of life-long Australians who lived in high immigrant areas believed the number of immigrants is too high...

...It doesn&#039;t really surprise us that there are people in areas of high immigrant concentration who are older established Australians ... (and have) a level of discomfort or even opposition to the direction of government policy,&quot; said the report&#039;s director, Professor Andrew Markus from Monash University.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But this contradicts the conventional wisdom at the ABC, that all prejudice against the Calathumpian community is born out of ignorance, and so their propaganda unit simply leaves the above part out and inserts this instead… 

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/22/2223620.htm?section=australia&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Areas&lt;/a&gt; where [people] haven&#039;t had a lot of contact with people from other cultures, immigrant groups, and so on, there has been less acceptance,&quot; he said.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think you’ll find the polar opposite to be true.  Barrack Obama received his highest margin, not in cosmopolitan New York or half black South Carolina, but in mostly white Iowa.

Here’s an idea for some research: go out to Western New South Wales and ask the locals about their feelings towards Native Americans, and then ask them how they feel about aboriginals.  Then go to an equivalent community in North America and repeat.

‘Tolerance’ is cheap when you have no contact with a group.  That’s why North Shore doctors’ wives are brimming over with it.  In the days of Apartheid, I used to know this bloke who’d bang on about how racist the Afrikaners were between telling ‘Abo’ jokes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>testing&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what the SMH report says&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>
<a href="http://news.smh.com.au/new-study-reveals-immigration-concerns/20080422-27oh.html" rel="nofollow">The</a> Mapping Social Cohesion survey found that 51.3 per cent of life-long Australians who lived in high immigrant areas believed the number of immigrants is too high&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;It doesn&#8217;t really surprise us that there are people in areas of high immigrant concentration who are older established Australians &#8230; (and have) a level of discomfort or even opposition to the direction of government policy,&#8221; said the report&#8217;s director, Professor Andrew Markus from Monash University.
</p></blockquote>
<p>But this contradicts the conventional wisdom at the ABC, that all prejudice against the Calathumpian community is born out of ignorance, and so their propaganda unit simply leaves the above part out and inserts this instead… </p>
<blockquote><p>
<a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/22/2223620.htm?section=australia" rel="nofollow">Areas</a> where [people] haven&#8217;t had a lot of contact with people from other cultures, immigrant groups, and so on, there has been less acceptance,&#8221; he said.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I think you’ll find the polar opposite to be true.  Barrack Obama received his highest margin, not in cosmopolitan New York or half black South Carolina, but in mostly white Iowa.</p>
<p>Here’s an idea for some research: go out to Western New South Wales and ask the locals about their feelings towards Native Americans, and then ask them how they feel about aboriginals.  Then go to an equivalent community in North America and repeat.</p>
<p>‘Tolerance’ is cheap when you have no contact with a group.  That’s why North Shore doctors’ wives are brimming over with it.  In the days of Apartheid, I used to know this bloke who’d bang on about how racist the Afrikaners were between telling ‘Abo’ jokes.</p>
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		<title>By: NPOV</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12885</link>
		<dc:creator>NPOV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12885</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I posted two articles here yesterday that have disappeared.

One included a classic example of mistakenly associating economic outcomes with cultural/ethnic/religious traits - that of assuming Ireland was floundering because of the lack of a &quot;Protestant work ethic&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I posted two articles here yesterday that have disappeared.</p>
<p>One included a classic example of mistakenly associating economic outcomes with cultural/ethnic/religious traits &#8211; that of assuming Ireland was floundering because of the lack of a &#8220;Protestant work ethic&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Soon</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12880</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Soon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12880</guid>
		<description>Spiros mentioned the Phillippines. Very bad example and at the same time very apt in other respects. The Chinese are as economically dominant in the Philippines as they are in Malaysia and almost as equally resented for that reason - and the Fillipinos are essentially ethnic Malays who just happened to have ended up Catholic instead of Muslim (like the Malays in Malaysia did). The main difference is that in addition as a slight counterweight to the Chinese in the Philippines you have a wealthy essentially mestizo landowning class who are part Spanish/Fillipino and sometimes with Chinese thrown in, so the racial divide doesn&#039;t appear that evident in practice as it is in Malaysia. In any case non British colonies are not as conducive to releasing the entrepreneurial energies of their residents, especially those with a Spanish influence - not surprising when you consider how dysfunctional a lot of Latin America is. 


As another counter-example to the &#039;Asians are entreprenerial thesis&#039; Spiros could just have as easily pointed to the difference in performance between the Malays and Chinese but of course there is no generic &#039;Asian&#039; culture within Asia some &#039;Asians&#039; consider other &#039;Asians&#039; to be more entrepreneurial and therefore some Asians have the same stereotype about other Asians than Westerners have about Asians - but it is partly based on fact and essentially refers to the overseas Chinese diaspora. But to complicate matters this &#039;entrepreneurial&#039; ethic  specifically refers to a very narrow self-selected group of essentially southern Chinese diaspora. 

The dialect group of one side of my extended family for instance -  the Hakka - has historically tended to direct ambitions into reaching the professional classes, politics and civil service instead (thus not surprisingly Lee Kuan Yew, Deng Xiaoping, Lee Teng Hui - who at one time were all simultaneously heads of Singapore, Taiwan and China were all Hakka)   rather than business and is arguably not as entrepreneurial as the ubiquitous Cantonese restaurant owner, for instance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spiros mentioned the Phillippines. Very bad example and at the same time very apt in other respects. The Chinese are as economically dominant in the Philippines as they are in Malaysia and almost as equally resented for that reason &#8211; and the Fillipinos are essentially ethnic Malays who just happened to have ended up Catholic instead of Muslim (like the Malays in Malaysia did). The main difference is that in addition as a slight counterweight to the Chinese in the Philippines you have a wealthy essentially mestizo landowning class who are part Spanish/Fillipino and sometimes with Chinese thrown in, so the racial divide doesn&#8217;t appear that evident in practice as it is in Malaysia. In any case non British colonies are not as conducive to releasing the entrepreneurial energies of their residents, especially those with a Spanish influence &#8211; not surprising when you consider how dysfunctional a lot of Latin America is. </p>
<p>As another counter-example to the &#8216;Asians are entreprenerial thesis&#8217; Spiros could just have as easily pointed to the difference in performance between the Malays and Chinese but of course there is no generic &#8216;Asian&#8217; culture within Asia some &#8216;Asians&#8217; consider other &#8216;Asians&#8217; to be more entrepreneurial and therefore some Asians have the same stereotype about other Asians than Westerners have about Asians &#8211; but it is partly based on fact and essentially refers to the overseas Chinese diaspora. But to complicate matters this &#8216;entrepreneurial&#8217; ethic  specifically refers to a very narrow self-selected group of essentially southern Chinese diaspora. </p>
<p>The dialect group of one side of my extended family for instance &#8211;  the Hakka &#8211; has historically tended to direct ambitions into reaching the professional classes, politics and civil service instead (thus not surprisingly Lee Kuan Yew, Deng Xiaoping, Lee Teng Hui &#8211; who at one time were all simultaneously heads of Singapore, Taiwan and China were all Hakka)   rather than business and is arguably not as entrepreneurial as the ubiquitous Cantonese restaurant owner, for instance.</p>
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		<title>By: Spiros</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12855</link>
		<dc:creator>Spiros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12855</guid>
		<description>&quot;The Chinese diaspora has also been very entrepreneurial. No Arab country has ever done this, despite their natural resources and proximity to European markets.&quot;

I disagree. Arabs were very entrepreneurial in the slave trade.

As for the Chinese, well of course. But that Confucionist culture was present when China was going terribly, economy-wise.

Then there&#039;s the Indians. Bone idle on some accounts, but the business class in Fiji is entirely Indian, much to the annoyance of the native Fijians.  Big successes in Silicon Valley, big failures elsewhere. Same culture, vastly different outcomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The Chinese diaspora has also been very entrepreneurial. No Arab country has ever done this, despite their natural resources and proximity to European markets.&#8221;</p>
<p>I disagree. Arabs were very entrepreneurial in the slave trade.</p>
<p>As for the Chinese, well of course. But that Confucionist culture was present when China was going terribly, economy-wise.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the Indians. Bone idle on some accounts, but the business class in Fiji is entirely Indian, much to the annoyance of the native Fijians.  Big successes in Silicon Valley, big failures elsewhere. Same culture, vastly different outcomes.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12856</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12856</guid>
		<description>Spiros - I don&#039;t like &#039;gross&#039; generalisations either, and I would not make the point the way JG did. Nor do I think there is generic Asian culture, but it is notable that in several Asian cultures they have both developed institutions conducive to economic growth and then seen actual growth that has been staggering in its scale and speed. The Chinese diaspora has also been very entrepreneurial. No Arab country has ever done this, despite their natural resources and proximity to European markets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spiros &#8211; I don&#8217;t like &#8216;gross&#8217; generalisations either, and I would not make the point the way JG did. Nor do I think there is generic Asian culture, but it is notable that in several Asian cultures they have both developed institutions conducive to economic growth and then seen actual growth that has been staggering in its scale and speed. The Chinese diaspora has also been very entrepreneurial. No Arab country has ever done this, despite their natural resources and proximity to European markets.</p>
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		<title>By: John Greenfield</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12857</link>
		<dc:creator>John Greenfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12857</guid>
		<description>Sprios

Unless you can relate your &quot;warning&quot; to the data and analysis here, it is just a Luvvie red-herring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sprios</p>
<p>Unless you can relate your &#8220;warning&#8221; to the data and analysis here, it is just a Luvvie red-herring.</p>
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		<title>By: Spiros</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-12858</link>
		<dc:creator>Spiros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/22/social-cohesion-survives-howard-multiculturalism-etc-etc/#comment-12858</guid>
		<description>Andrew, I didn&#039;t say culture is irrelevant. I was warning against gross generalisations. First, there&#039;s no such thing as a generic Asian culture. Second, even between like cultures, there can be vastly different economic outcomes, for instance North and South Korea, or China pre 1978 and post 1978.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, I didn&#8217;t say culture is irrelevant. I was warning against gross generalisations. First, there&#8217;s no such thing as a generic Asian culture. Second, even between like cultures, there can be vastly different economic outcomes, for instance North and South Korea, or China pre 1978 and post 1978.</p>
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