Comments on: Do we have too few graduates? http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/ Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:20:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: NPOV http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12776 NPOV Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:10:16 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12776 Fair enough, Marry, but why aren't "technical colleges" classified as a form of tertiary education? Fair enough, Marry, but why aren’t “technical colleges” classified as a form of tertiary education?

]]> By: Marry Angry http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12777 Marry Angry Sun, 20 Apr 2008 04:32:34 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12777 No you are wrong i am a swiss living in australia. I did a year of schooling in switzerland, high school equivilent state schooling as most do except the extreemly religious. Firstly i was in a class of around 20, i can honestly say no or very little antiscoial behaviour wasn't present, wagging school didn't happen, there were no uniforms, school was free and all books and note books were provided free. If your comparing how many people attend uni your missing the point, architects don't go to uni in switerland they go to technical college and the majority of them have a trade initially, trades people in switzerland are highly skilled and valued as much as the intillectual community, the majority of thoes not going to uni will have done a trade at leaving high school which is also and extension of tertiary education, this is where Australia is miles behind, that is educating the rest of australia that doesn't attend university. No you are wrong i am a swiss living in australia. I did a year of schooling in switzerland, high school equivilent state schooling as most do except the extreemly religious. Firstly i was in a class of around 20, i can honestly say no or very little antiscoial behaviour wasn’t present, wagging school didn’t happen, there were no uniforms, school was free and all books and note books were provided free. If your comparing how many people attend uni your missing the point, architects don’t go to uni in switerland they go to technical college and the majority of them have a trade initially, trades people in switzerland are highly skilled and valued as much as the intillectual community, the majority of thoes not going to uni will have done a trade at leaving high school which is also and extension of tertiary education, this is where Australia is miles behind, that is educating the rest of australia that doesn’t attend university.

]]> By: NPOV http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12778 NPOV Sat, 19 Apr 2008 03:55:18 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12778 Re: Switzerland, on a little further reading, it almost appears as if Switzerland's reputation for high levels of education comes largely from the number of highly educated foreigners who work and study there. However what might also be interesting is a comparison of tertiary-education levels between major cities e.g. Zurich/Geneva/Basel vs Sydney/Melbourne/Canberra. Re: Switzerland, on a little further reading, it almost appears as if Switzerland’s reputation for high levels of education comes largely from the number of highly educated foreigners who work and study there.
However what might also be interesting is a comparison of tertiary-education levels between major cities e.g. Zurich/Geneva/Basel vs Sydney/Melbourne/Canberra.

]]> By: Sacha http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12779 Sacha Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:03:15 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12779 Hi Conrad, oh I understand your example with teachers. In the maths world quite a few people stay in academia doing multiple postdocs (each for a few years) trying to land a more ongoing maths job. The pay of these postdocs isn't great and job security is, well, time-limited (plus there's a good chance you need to uproot your family every few years). A lot of people go into jobs in which they would only indirectly use their knowledge and more directly use their analytical skills (I'm one of these). A lot or most of these people could probably be quite good as researchers in the academic world (at the least) if the jobs were there, as the bar is quite high. Hi Conrad, oh I understand your example with teachers. In the maths world quite a few people stay in academia doing multiple postdocs (each for a few years) trying to land a more ongoing maths job. The pay of these postdocs isn’t great and job security is, well, time-limited (plus there’s a good chance you need to uproot your family every few years).

A lot of people go into jobs in which they would only indirectly use their knowledge and more directly use their analytical skills (I’m one of these). A lot or most of these people could probably be quite good as researchers in the academic world (at the least) if the jobs were there, as the bar is quite high.

]]> By: conrad http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12780 conrad Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:29:24 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12780 I agree with you Sacha, however, even if (1) is true in some areas, it doesn't mean that there are many people with PhDs in those fields that are not going to be good enough to make it. I imagine your area is an exception, since there a few people with PhDs in maths and I imagine to get one you really have to know your stuff. Compare that to some areas of biology and psychology (and all the disciplines that have big labs that need lots labour), and what you'll find is that many people get their PhDs by basically being smarter than average lab slaves. At the end of this process, what you find is that lots of people do not have the aptitude to be anything more, but its never clear who will be in this category when they enter their PhDs. Hence the only way to get enough of them is to produce too many of them. Incidentally, rather than use that example, perhaps a better example is from the government -- this is exactly the tactic the government uses to keep some areas like teaching and nursing going, except that instead of needing a specifically smart group, you just need enough. In this case, what you see in these areas is a high attrition rate due to the shitty conditions. To counter this, the government simply increases the number of graduates, so even though lots go through attrition, there are still enough left. The main difference with this example versus the last is that in one case, you need people who are smart enough, whereas in this case, you just need enough people who are simple willing to do it. This means all the people who end up doing some other job with a teaching/nursing degree look as though they are over educated, but you still don't have enough teachers or nurses. What's unknown are the numbers you really need to fill the positions due to the attrition, and the numbers that are really over-educated. I agree with you Sacha, however, even if (1) is true in some areas, it doesn’t mean that there are many people with PhDs in those fields that are not going to be good enough to make it. I imagine your area is an exception, since there a few people with PhDs in maths and I imagine to get one you really have to know your stuff. Compare that to some areas of biology and psychology (and all the disciplines that have big labs that need lots labour), and what you’ll find is that many people get their PhDs by basically being smarter than average lab slaves. At the end of this process, what you find is that lots of people do not have the aptitude to be anything more, but its never clear who will be in this category when they enter their PhDs. Hence the only way to get enough of them is to produce too many of them.
Incidentally, rather than use that example, perhaps a better example is from the government — this is exactly the tactic the government uses to keep some areas like teaching and nursing going, except that instead of needing a specifically smart group, you just need enough. In this case, what you see in these areas is a high attrition rate due to the shitty conditions. To counter this, the government simply increases the number of graduates, so even though lots go through attrition, there are still enough left. The main difference with this example versus the last is that in one case, you need people who are smart enough, whereas in this case, you just need enough people who are simple willing to do it. This means all the people who end up doing some other job with a teaching/nursing degree look as though they are over educated, but you still don’t have enough teachers or nurses. What’s unknown are the numbers you really need to fill the positions due to the attrition, and the numbers that are really over-educated.

]]> By: Sacha http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12781 Sacha Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:31:16 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12781 Conrad wrote: "This means many people end up with PhDs in science that don’t use them. This means there is a surplus of people working in fields with PhDs that don’t need them, but there isn’t a surplus of top scientists." Two things: 1. there are small numbers of jobs in some areas of science - in some you may have more "top scientists" if there were more jobs 2. people can also use the skills they developed in their PhD studies in other kinds of work Conrad wrote: “This means many people end up with PhDs in science that don’t use them. This means there is a surplus of people working in fields with PhDs that don’t need them, but there isn’t a surplus of top scientists.”

Two things:
1. there are small numbers of jobs in some areas of science - in some you may have more “top scientists” if there were more jobs
2. people can also use the skills they developed in their PhD studies in other kinds of work

]]> By: NPOV http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12782 NPOV Fri, 18 Apr 2008 03:58:02 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12782 Andrew, thanks for that - strange then why both Swizterland and Finland have a reputation for having a well-educated citizenry. Maybe it is, as you say, more in the quality of the education (and particularly secondary education). If the problem with over-education is mainly one of unrealistic expectations, then perhaps that's more of an issue with the way education is sold these days. I know I didn't do my two degrees for the express purpose of working in fancier jobs (in fact I had the option of going directly into well-paid employment before even completing my degrees). Andrew, thanks for that - strange then why both Swizterland and Finland have a reputation for having a well-educated citizenry. Maybe it is, as you say, more in the quality of the education (and particularly secondary education).

If the problem with over-education is mainly one of unrealistic expectations, then perhaps that’s more of an issue with the way education is sold these days. I know I didn’t do my two degrees for the express purpose of working in fancier jobs (in fact I had the option of going directly into well-paid employment before even completing my degrees).

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12783 Andrew Norton Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:49:18 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12783 "At any rate, isn’t saying there are “psychological costs to being over-educated” just another way of saying “ignorance is bliss”?" No, it is a case of saying that when reality does not meet aspirations people tend to be discontented. “At any rate, isn’t saying there are “psychological costs to being over-educated” just another way of saying “ignorance is bliss”?”

No, it is a case of saying that when reality does not meet aspirations people tend to be discontented.

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12784 Andrew Norton Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:26:34 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12784 NPOV - According to the OECD, a higher proportion of Australians aged 25-64 (23%) have uni-level qualifications than Finland (18%) or Switzerland (19%). For any tertiary it is Australia 32%, Finland 35%, Switzerland 29%. For the younger age group of 25-34 Australia and Finland are both 38%, and Switzerland 31%. Their schools may be better, but their post-school education is not greater. NPOV - According to the OECD, a higher proportion of Australians aged 25-64 (23%) have uni-level qualifications than Finland (18%) or Switzerland (19%). For any tertiary it is Australia 32%, Finland 35%, Switzerland 29%. For the younger age group of 25-34 Australia and Finland are both 38%, and Switzerland 31%. Their schools may be better, but their post-school education is not greater.

]]> By: NPOV http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12785 NPOV Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:09:52 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/16/do-we-have-too-few-graduates/#comment-12785 Sure, Andrew, but I look at the countries with generally higher levels of education than Australia (e.g. Finland or Switzerland), and can't see how Australia could possibly suffer from raising its average education level. At any rate, isn't saying there are "psychological costs to being over-educated" just another way of saying "ignorance is bliss"? Sure, Andrew, but I look at the countries with generally higher levels of education than Australia (e.g. Finland or Switzerland), and can’t see how Australia could possibly suffer from raising its average education level.

At any rate, isn’t saying there are “psychological costs to being over-educated” just another way of saying “ignorance is bliss”?

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