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	<title>Comments on: Education, not indoctrination?</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ross Grove</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-16697</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Grove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-16697</guid>
		<description>I'm happy to give the vast bulk of uni students some benefit of the doubt when it comes to educational bias. I think they're smart enough to realise when they're being railroaded by lecturers (and they often are) and if they're too apathetic to fish for an alternative viewpoint they probably weren't paying attention to the lecturer's meaningless drivel in the first place. We all have access to a grain of salt.

My concern comes from biases which may exist in individual teachers, their material and the broader curriculum (where the marginally more maleable minds of children and teenagers are concerned).

I picked up some primary school teaching material at Borders today on Australian Prime Ministers.

Rudd is portrayed as a hero of sorts on a par with Gough Whitlam  with glory references to the "education revolution" and other such fiction.

Howard, on the other hand was mediocre at best and Fraser was portrayed as some right wing usurper of the throne who achieved very little at best.

How you regulate this I don't know. I think the best response is simply for "good men to do SOMETHING" and ensure access to more "fair and balanced" material to offset the "left wing rubbish".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m happy to give the vast bulk of uni students some benefit of the doubt when it comes to educational bias. I think they&#8217;re smart enough to realise when they&#8217;re being railroaded by lecturers (and they often are) and if they&#8217;re too apathetic to fish for an alternative viewpoint they probably weren&#8217;t paying attention to the lecturer&#8217;s meaningless drivel in the first place. We all have access to a grain of salt.</p>
<p>My concern comes from biases which may exist in individual teachers, their material and the broader curriculum (where the marginally more maleable minds of children and teenagers are concerned).</p>
<p>I picked up some primary school teaching material at Borders today on Australian Prime Ministers.</p>
<p>Rudd is portrayed as a hero of sorts on a par with Gough Whitlam  with glory references to the &#8220;education revolution&#8221; and other such fiction.</p>
<p>Howard, on the other hand was mediocre at best and Fraser was portrayed as some right wing usurper of the throne who achieved very little at best.</p>
<p>How you regulate this I don&#8217;t know. I think the best response is simply for &#8220;good men to do SOMETHING&#8221; and ensure access to more &#8220;fair and balanced&#8221; material to offset the &#8220;left wing rubbish&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12594</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12594</guid>
		<description>Andrew - I guess it also depends on the career paths of think-tank staff. If people wanted to go into (or back to) academia a think-tank may support dual-use research. While I have  had a few things in academic journals as spin-offs from other things I have been doing, I don't want an academic career so this is not generally a good use of my time. I don't like the editing standards either (including one case of a change that turned  a sentence into nonsense, and another of clear prose being re-written to convoluted academic prose).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew - I guess it also depends on the career paths of think-tank staff. If people wanted to go into (or back to) academia a think-tank may support dual-use research. While I have  had a few things in academic journals as spin-offs from other things I have been doing, I don&#8217;t want an academic career so this is not generally a good use of my time. I don&#8217;t like the editing standards either (including one case of a change that turned  a sentence into nonsense, and another of clear prose being re-written to convoluted academic prose).</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Leigh</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12578</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12578</guid>
		<description>Andrew, some US thinktanks have explicit incentives to publish in leading field journals (California's PPIC won't renew contracts if staff fail to meet this criteria). I guess it reflects the fact that we don't have any Australian thinktanks of the "university-without-students" type.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, some US thinktanks have explicit incentives to publish in leading field journals (California&#8217;s PPIC won&#8217;t renew contracts if staff fail to meet this criteria). I guess it reflects the fact that we don&#8217;t have any Australian thinktanks of the &#8220;university-without-students&#8221; type.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12557</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12557</guid>
		<description>Sukrit - For thinktankers, the incentives for publishing in academic journals are poor. They take extraordinary amounts of time to get into print, and you might eventually be read by a few students. Far better to put out a paper while the data is still up to date and the subject is topical, and get media and blog coverage for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sukrit - For thinktankers, the incentives for publishing in academic journals are poor. They take extraordinary amounts of time to get into print, and you might eventually be read by a few students. Far better to put out a paper while the data is still up to date and the subject is topical, and get media and blog coverage for it.</p>
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		<title>By: conrad</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12577</link>
		<dc:creator>conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12577</guid>
		<description>"But it’s the purpose of the student surveys to weed bad lecturers out isn’t it?"

No. Part is to make students happy and part is to help make subjects better since you can get very different marks in different subjects (although the feedback is often quite poor -- people complain about anything and everything, like schedules, dirty rooms, broken equipment etc. -- nothing you can do anything about. In addition, the surveys they use are often poorly designed, so everything correlates with everything, so you don't know what aspects students don't like. You may as well just have used a single like/dislike question).
Unfortunately, at places like mine where you are supposed to take them seriously (many places don't), it means you end with subjects driven by student expectations. A subject I run, for example, is turning into a multi-choice one this year after students complained they didn't like written answers in exams. Another example is what students expect to do with assignments -- I have to tell students I won't tell them how to format tables (!! - as it turns out, other lecturers tell them how and they expect you too as well) otherwise they complain. Similarily, I used to like to set assignments which they couldn't solve via intuition (it forces them to methodologically solve problems), but they complain too much about that too. C'est la vie I guess.

Incidentally, most people I know are happy to have students criticize their work/opinions, and I work in a place with a fair few hard-left people (although the subjects are generally not especially political).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But it’s the purpose of the student surveys to weed bad lecturers out isn’t it?&#8221;</p>
<p>No. Part is to make students happy and part is to help make subjects better since you can get very different marks in different subjects (although the feedback is often quite poor &#8212; people complain about anything and everything, like schedules, dirty rooms, broken equipment etc. &#8212; nothing you can do anything about. In addition, the surveys they use are often poorly designed, so everything correlates with everything, so you don&#8217;t know what aspects students don&#8217;t like. You may as well just have used a single like/dislike question).<br />
Unfortunately, at places like mine where you are supposed to take them seriously (many places don&#8217;t), it means you end with subjects driven by student expectations. A subject I run, for example, is turning into a multi-choice one this year after students complained they didn&#8217;t like written answers in exams. Another example is what students expect to do with assignments &#8212; I have to tell students I won&#8217;t tell them how to format tables (!! - as it turns out, other lecturers tell them how and they expect you too as well) otherwise they complain. Similarily, I used to like to set assignments which they couldn&#8217;t solve via intuition (it forces them to methodologically solve problems), but they complain too much about that too. C&#8217;est la vie I guess.</p>
<p>Incidentally, most people I know are happy to have students criticize their work/opinions, and I work in a place with a fair few hard-left people (although the subjects are generally not especially political).</p>
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		<title>By: Sukrit</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12593</link>
		<dc:creator>Sukrit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12593</guid>
		<description>Regarding the topic of academic bias: I haven't yet found any bias in the marking. When I got a bad mark it was because of my own sloppiness. They don't mind if you argue a contrarian position.

But there is a LOT of bias in how the courses are taught and in the reading materials. For example, in my "public policy making" subject which I'm taking now, the reading pack is totally stacked with "left-wing" socialist stuff (there's no textbook). The lecturer mostly invites guest lecturers from charities, who push their own "more government funding" agenda.

It was even worse in "Indigenous People and the State" (taught by an indigenous lecturer who seemed unable to look objectively at the situation). It's like a deliberate attempt to ensure students think there is no disagreement on the issues.

The most balanced subjects I've taken so far are the international relations subjects.

But it's the purpose of the student surveys to weed bad lecturers out isn't it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the topic of academic bias: I haven&#8217;t yet found any bias in the marking. When I got a bad mark it was because of my own sloppiness. They don&#8217;t mind if you argue a contrarian position.</p>
<p>But there is a LOT of bias in how the courses are taught and in the reading materials. For example, in my &#8220;public policy making&#8221; subject which I&#8217;m taking now, the reading pack is totally stacked with &#8220;left-wing&#8221; socialist stuff (there&#8217;s no textbook). The lecturer mostly invites guest lecturers from charities, who push their own &#8220;more government funding&#8221; agenda.</p>
<p>It was even worse in &#8220;Indigenous People and the State&#8221; (taught by an indigenous lecturer who seemed unable to look objectively at the situation). It&#8217;s like a deliberate attempt to ensure students think there is no disagreement on the issues.</p>
<p>The most balanced subjects I&#8217;ve taken so far are the international relations subjects.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s the purpose of the student surveys to weed bad lecturers out isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Sukrit</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12556</link>
		<dc:creator>Sukrit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12556</guid>
		<description>But even though you're not officially an academic, it's still possible to submit articles to mainstream journals right? E.g. Australian Journal of Political Science. When I'm doing research on the Melbourne university database, articles from the mainstream journals always come up first. It's worth it for the CIS fellows to get published in some mainstream journals, just to shake up the group-think and show people there is an alternative to big-government solutions for every problem. I think that's one reason Friedman was so influential - he hardly ever published in the free-market journals, always in the "solid" journals of the field like the American Economic Review, Quarterly Journal of Economics, etc.

Is Policy considered a refereed journal? Because it doesn't come up in most searches on the uni database.

I do agree we need more libertarian academics. But it's quite a nerdy job, so I guess not many libertarians would interested in it. It's not bias. Libertarian foreign policy, and a some social policy, reflects the consensus view in Australia (e.g. get out of Iraq, concern over civil liberties) and economics is very empirical so that is judged on its own merits via peer-review. Political philosophy might be different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But even though you&#8217;re not officially an academic, it&#8217;s still possible to submit articles to mainstream journals right? E.g. Australian Journal of Political Science. When I&#8217;m doing research on the Melbourne university database, articles from the mainstream journals always come up first. It&#8217;s worth it for the CIS fellows to get published in some mainstream journals, just to shake up the group-think and show people there is an alternative to big-government solutions for every problem. I think that&#8217;s one reason Friedman was so influential - he hardly ever published in the free-market journals, always in the &#8220;solid&#8221; journals of the field like the American Economic Review, Quarterly Journal of Economics, etc.</p>
<p>Is Policy considered a refereed journal? Because it doesn&#8217;t come up in most searches on the uni database.</p>
<p>I do agree we need more libertarian academics. But it&#8217;s quite a nerdy job, so I guess not many libertarians would interested in it. It&#8217;s not bias. Libertarian foreign policy, and a some social policy, reflects the consensus view in Australia (e.g. get out of Iraq, concern over civil liberties) and economics is very empirical so that is judged on its own merits via peer-review. Political philosophy might be different.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12552</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12552</guid>
		<description>Sally - I self-selected out, mainly because I perceived the job prospecs in my then field, political theory, as poor. My political views would not have helped, and I agree there are some toxic departments. But I think it is fair to say that right-of-centre people have long perceived that there are more rewarding fields, both financially and otherwise, than academia. Eventually this becomes self-perpetuating, as non-left students do not get the academic support available to left-wing students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sally - I self-selected out, mainly because I perceived the job prospecs in my then field, political theory, as poor. My political views would not have helped, and I agree there are some toxic departments. But I think it is fair to say that right-of-centre people have long perceived that there are more rewarding fields, both financially and otherwise, than academia. Eventually this becomes self-perpetuating, as non-left students do not get the academic support available to left-wing students.</p>
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		<title>By: Sally</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12551</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12551</guid>
		<description>Yes, I took a philosophy course with Jeremy but there was nothing in the political science stream! (Jeremy's course was excellent by the way)  And Michael Mckinley (who is a senior academic in the pols department) is always talking to classes about how Shearmur's views are wrong, outdated, irrelevant etc.  Completely unprofessional. (this hostility could be why Shearmur switched departments many years back but I'm just speculating).

You attribute too few academics in part to self-selection but isn't the problem that potential academics self-select out because they perceive hostility or discrimination towards their views?

No one wants to work in an environment where the views get mocked or are treated with contempt, and my experience of ANU is that far from being an open-minded environment of free inquiry, the politics department is openly hostile to liberal and conservative viewpoints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I took a philosophy course with Jeremy but there was nothing in the political science stream! (Jeremy&#8217;s course was excellent by the way)  And Michael Mckinley (who is a senior academic in the pols department) is always talking to classes about how Shearmur&#8217;s views are wrong, outdated, irrelevant etc.  Completely unprofessional. (this hostility could be why Shearmur switched departments many years back but I&#8217;m just speculating).</p>
<p>You attribute too few academics in part to self-selection but isn&#8217;t the problem that potential academics self-select out because they perceive hostility or discrimination towards their views?</p>
<p>No one wants to work in an environment where the views get mocked or are treated with contempt, and my experience of ANU is that far from being an open-minded environment of free inquiry, the politics department is openly hostile to liberal and conservative viewpoints.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12555</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 03:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/01/education-not-indoctrination/#comment-12555</guid>
		<description>Sally - There is a Hayek expert at ANU, Jeremy Shearmur. I agree there is a problem with too few liberal or conservative academics, though I also think this is as much self-selecting out as discrimination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sally - There is a Hayek expert at ANU, Jeremy Shearmur. I agree there is a problem with too few liberal or conservative academics, though I also think this is as much self-selecting out as discrimination.</p>
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