Comments on: Taxpayer-funded overseas holidays for graduates: the latest NUS anti-HECS argument http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/ Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:25:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12971 Andrew Norton Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:56:36 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12971 "Such cynicism! Kyriacou is a very common Greek name." Spiros, 14 April, in (I think) a mock doubting of my suggestion that Joy Kyriacou and Daniel Kyriacou might be related. A reliable source now tells me that - surprise, surprise - they are siblings and both active in the ALP in inner Sydney. That's the trouble with using general journalists. They can't tell when they are being conned. “Such cynicism! Kyriacou is a very common Greek name.”

Spiros, 14 April, in (I think) a mock doubting of my suggestion that Joy Kyriacou and Daniel Kyriacou might be related.

A reliable source now tells me that - surprise, surprise - they are siblings and both active in the ALP in inner Sydney. That’s the trouble with using general journalists. They can’t tell when they are being conned.

]]> By: Andrew Norton » Blog Archive » Fellow-student funded overseas holidays: the latest anti-VSU argument http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12926 Andrew Norton » Blog Archive » Fellow-student funded overseas holidays: the latest anti-VSU argument Sun, 27 Apr 2008 00:32:51 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12926 [...] we saw in the case of Joy Kyriacou a couple of weeks ago, there are people whose sense of entitlement to the earnings of others is [...] [...] we saw in the case of Joy Kyriacou a couple of weeks ago, there are people whose sense of entitlement to the earnings of others is [...]

]]> By: NPOV http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12741 NPOV Wed, 16 Apr 2008 01:09:39 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12741 Gerrit, that's an interesting argument in favour of fully taxpayer-subsidised tertiary education, but I'm not sure I buy it - what you're suggesting is that the current scheme moves the costs towards those taxpayers who make the most use of the services of university-educated professionals. But is this a bad thing? In the case of doctors, I can see the argument that it unfairly moves the costs towards those that happen to suffer poor health (or hypochondria) - but, importantly in Australia, only to those who choose not to use bulk-billed services. In the case of other professions, presumably people make use of the services of a tertiary-educated professionals because they stand to gain from it personally - so it seems entirely fair they should pay more towards the cost of the professional's education. Further, it's a little difficult to determine just how much the costs of education are passed on to customers, as opposed to being absorbed by the professionals being reducing their disposable incomes (or, potentially, reducing what they pay their staff). Surely most successful professionals have already pay off their HECS/HELP debts, so those still with them wouldn't be competitive if they charged customers more. Gerrit, that’s an interesting argument in favour of fully taxpayer-subsidised tertiary education, but I’m not sure I buy it - what you’re suggesting is that the current scheme moves the costs towards those taxpayers who make the most use of the services of university-educated professionals. But is this a bad thing? In the case of doctors, I can see the argument that it unfairly moves the costs towards those that happen to suffer poor health (or hypochondria) - but, importantly in Australia, only to those who choose not to use bulk-billed services. In the case of other professions, presumably people make use of the services of a tertiary-educated professionals because they stand to gain from it personally - so it seems entirely fair they should pay more towards the cost of the professional’s education. Further, it’s a little difficult to determine just how much the costs of education are passed on to customers, as opposed to being absorbed by the professionals being reducing their disposable incomes (or, potentially, reducing what they pay their staff). Surely most successful professionals have already pay off their HECS/HELP debts, so those still with them wouldn’t be competitive if they charged customers more.

]]> By: STT http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12742 STT Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:03:23 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12742 When I did a student exchange in Germany I was still eligible for Youth Allowance. I was getting $320 a fortnight to piss up the wall in Europe. Best rort ever! Plus Melbourne Uni gave me $1500 for my troubles. When I did a student exchange in Germany I was still eligible for Youth Allowance. I was getting $320 a fortnight to piss up the wall in Europe. Best rort ever! Plus Melbourne Uni gave me $1500 for my troubles.

]]> By: Gerrit H. Schorel-Hlavka http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12743 Gerrit H. Schorel-Hlavka Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:57:07 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12743 Ok I admit that I never had any university education and my wife has (and so her late husband) but I am not the less for it. My step-daughter (now 47) with her various law degrees nevertheless asked my advice when it came to certain litigation. . As such, and being a “CONSTITUTIONALIST” I am well aware that not having a university degree isn’t going to be the end of the world. If anything I take on any lawyer/barrister/judge in litigation, and so successfully considering my successful 5-year litigation against the Federal Government! . Still, having stated this I would prefer that university education is provided free of charge for Australians. After all, charging students and then having them pay back the HECS fees only increases the cost to the customer in the end. A bloke who became a doctor has to charge to recoup his study cost and so the patient end up paying for it. The same with other professions. As such, I favour free education for Australians. In my view, in the long run it will be cheaper for the end consumer and give a fairness to those who studied hard to get finally their life going after the completed their studies and not be bogged down to repay the HECS fees. I may not master the English language (not my native language) as one who graduated from university but as author of books in the INSPECTOR-RIKATI® series on constitutional and other legal issues I am hardly in fear that this harms me. Neither would I fear others to get free education where I had none of that level, as after all, if we all care about someone else then someone else will also care for us. Hence, lets pursue free education for Australians even at university levels and abandon fees charges for Australians! I view it is cheaper in the long run for taxpayers to pay for it. Then again some may disagree with my views, and they are entitled to their views as much as I am to mine. See also my blog at http://au.360.yahoo.com/profile-ijpxwMQ4dbXm0BMADq1lv8AYHknTV_QH Ok I admit that I never had any university education and my wife has (and so her late husband) but I am not the less for it.
My step-daughter (now 47) with her various law degrees nevertheless asked my advice when it came to certain litigation.
.
As such, and being a “CONSTITUTIONALIST” I am well aware that not having a university degree isn’t going to be the end of the world. If anything I take on any lawyer/barrister/judge in litigation, and so successfully considering my successful 5-year litigation against the Federal Government!
.
Still, having stated this I would prefer that university education is provided free of charge for Australians. After all, charging students and then having them pay back the HECS fees only increases the cost to the customer in the end.
A bloke who became a doctor has to charge to recoup his study cost and so the patient end up paying for it. The same with other professions.
As such, I favour free education for Australians. In my view, in the long run it will be cheaper for the end consumer and give a fairness to those who studied hard to get finally their life going after the completed their studies and not be bogged down to repay the HECS fees.
I may not master the English language (not my native language) as one who graduated from university but as author of books in the INSPECTOR-RIKATI® series on constitutional and other legal issues I am hardly in fear that this harms me. Neither would I fear others to get free education where I had none of that level, as after all, if we all care about someone else then someone else will also care for us. Hence, lets pursue free education for Australians even at university levels and abandon fees charges for Australians! I view it is cheaper in the long run for taxpayers to pay for it.
Then again some may disagree with my views, and they are entitled to their views as much as I am to mine. See also my blog at
http://au.360.yahoo.com/profile-ijpxwMQ4dbXm0BMADq1lv8AYHknTV_QH

]]> By: Russell http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12735 Russell Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:21:27 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12735 WAIT-In-Europe 1973 - - apparently the stress nearly killed the woman who organised it so the next year it was scaled down to WAIT-In-Asia, and that one was the end of the plan to give students 'the grand tour'. It was different to an exchange in that everyday had 10 different things arranged - you got a nice multi-disciplinary experience, while everybody read the same couple of basic "History of European Civilisation" texts. Those were the days when the state government handily owned a bank as well as WAIT - so we had loans arranged for us on agreeable terms. WAIT-In-Europe 1973 - - apparently the stress nearly killed the woman who organised it so the next year it was scaled down to WAIT-In-Asia, and that one was the end of the plan to give students ‘the grand tour’.

It was different to an exchange in that everyday had 10 different things arranged - you got a nice multi-disciplinary experience, while everybody read the same couple of basic “History of European Civilisation” texts.

Those were the days when the state government handily owned a bank as well as WAIT - so we had loans arranged for us on agreeable terms.

]]> By: Andrew Norton http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12736 Andrew Norton Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:46:10 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12736 Spiros - The market for ideas has its own correctives for self-interest, eg blogs pointingo out rent-seeking behaviour. Russell - Andrew L is right, it is the <a href="http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/Main/Quickfind/StudyOverseas/OSHELP.htm" rel="nofollow">OS-HELP scheme</a>. As Curtin is only 21 years old, I presume that was a WAIT tour? Spiros - The market for ideas has its own correctives for self-interest, eg blogs pointingo out rent-seeking behaviour.

Russell - Andrew L is right, it is the OS-HELP scheme.

As Curtin is only 21 years old, I presume that was a WAIT tour?

]]> By: Andrew Leigh http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12746 Andrew Leigh Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:42:07 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12746 Russell, I'm pretty sure you can add an overseas student exchange to your HECS bill. My memory is somewhat hazy, but I think this was a point upon which Andrew N. corrected me a few years ago. Russell, I’m pretty sure you can add an overseas student exchange to your HECS bill. My memory is somewhat hazy, but I think this was a point upon which Andrew N. corrected me a few years ago.

]]> By: Dave Bath http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12734 Dave Bath Mon, 14 Apr 2008 02:45:12 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12734 What has changed since student protests were more about making things better for others (e.g. anti-war, anti-apartheid, etc, etc)? What has made them more self-serving, illogical, and out of touch? (1) The newer generation might be more selfish that their parents and/or (2) Compulsory student unionism made student associations more reasonable. So, when did things go downhill, and what immediately preceded that change (and therefore is probably to blame)? What has changed since student protests were more about making things better for others (e.g. anti-war, anti-apartheid, etc, etc)? What has made them more self-serving, illogical, and out of touch?
(1) The newer generation might be more selfish that their parents
and/or
(2) Compulsory student unionism made student associations more reasonable.

So, when did things go downhill, and what immediately preceded that change (and therefore is probably to blame)?

]]> By: Russell http://andrewnorton.info/2008/04/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12745 Russell Mon, 14 Apr 2008 02:43:04 +0000 http://andrewnorton.info/blog/2008/04/13/taxpayer-funded-overseas-holidays-for-graduates-the-latest-nus-anti-hecs-argument/#comment-12745 "Yet no one believes that the government should fund an overseas trip for every 19 year old in the country" ... well, perhaps not every 19 yo. . Thirty-five years ago, in the summer break between 2nd and 3rd year I went on a Curtin Uni organised tour of Europe: 120 students with 10 lecturers - each day there was a program of pre-arranged visits to various organisations/places, you could choose on the day whatever lecturer-led visit you wanted to join. You kept a diary and handed it in at the end for course credit. Best educational experience ever. So I would like that opportunity available for all uni students - the cost could be just added on to HECS. “Yet no one believes that the government should fund an overseas trip for every 19 year old in the country” … well, perhaps not every 19 yo.
.
Thirty-five years ago, in the summer break between 2nd and 3rd year I went on a Curtin Uni organised tour of Europe: 120 students with 10 lecturers - each day there was a program of pre-arranged visits to various organisations/places, you could choose on the day whatever lecturer-led visit you wanted to join. You kept a diary and handed it in at the end for course credit. Best educational experience ever. So I would like that opportunity available for all uni students - the cost could be just added on to HECS.

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