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	<title>Comments on: Petty savings</title>
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	<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/</link>
	<description>Observations from Carlton's Lone Classical Liberal</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 02:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-19915</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-19915</guid>
		<description>[...] the Budget reactions are still coming in; Andrew Norton believes it was disappointing. Temujin agrees.Jeremy decries the hand-out mentality of some Australians. dr. faustus thinks [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Budget reactions are still coming in; Andrew Norton believes it was disappointing. Temujin agrees.Jeremy decries the hand-out mentality of some Australians. dr. faustus thinks [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 24/7 not enough</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-14350</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 24/7 not enough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 11:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-14350</guid>
		<description>[...] As I was saying, a 30% cut in Ministerial staff cannot be done without consequences. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I was saying, a 30% cut in Ministerial staff cannot be done without consequences. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Temujin</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13869</link>
		<dc:creator>Temujin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 10:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13869</guid>
		<description>The actual budget documents are also clear. There will be more revenue ($2.4b) and more spending ($1.3b) in 2008/09 resulting from policy decisions, compared with the PEFO estimates.

Higher spending on continuing programs is considered a "parameter variation". The budget documents clearly say that new policy will lead to higher tax and higher spending. Check BP1, statements 4 (revenue) and 5 (expenses).

http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/thoughts-on-the-budget/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The actual budget documents are also clear. There will be more revenue ($2.4b) and more spending ($1.3b) in 2008/09 resulting from policy decisions, compared with the PEFO estimates.</p>
<p>Higher spending on continuing programs is considered a &#8220;parameter variation&#8221;. The budget documents clearly say that new policy will lead to higher tax and higher spending. Check BP1, statements 4 (revenue) and 5 (expenses).</p>
<p><a href="http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/thoughts-on-the-budget/" rel="nofollow">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/15/thoughts-on-the-budget/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13846</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 22:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13846</guid>
		<description>Temujin - I agree that calling a tax a saving is incorrect, but that table does separate out genuine savings from new taxes. It says that there will be $5,338 million less spending and $5, 274 million in new spending, leaving spending $64 million lower on a new measures basis (of course higher spending on continuing programs means that total spending is well up). On top of this, there are $1,918 million in new taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Temujin - I agree that calling a tax a saving is incorrect, but that table does separate out genuine savings from new taxes. It says that there will be $5,338 million less spending and $5, 274 million in new spending, leaving spending $64 million lower on a new measures basis (of course higher spending on continuing programs means that total spending is well up). On top of this, there are $1,918 million in new taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: Temujin</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13832</link>
		<dc:creator>Temujin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 12:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13832</guid>
		<description>Andrew -- that was the wrong chart to look at if you want to see revenue &#38; spending decisions. It is inappropriate to call a tax a "saving". The traditional term for higher tax and higher spending has been "higher tax and higher spending". It has a certain ring to it.

Change is the spice of life. I've changed most things in my life since birth... so I thought I'd extend that theme to my name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew &#8212; that was the wrong chart to look at if you want to see revenue &amp; spending decisions. It is inappropriate to call a tax a &#8220;saving&#8221;. The traditional term for higher tax and higher spending has been &#8220;higher tax and higher spending&#8221;. It has a certain ring to it.</p>
<p>Change is the spice of life. I&#8217;ve changed most things in my life since birth&#8230; so I thought I&#8217;d extend that theme to my name.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13827</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 06:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13827</guid>
		<description>Peter - I would not claim % of GDP measures to be irrelevant, but the previous Treasurer used them to claim that his spending record was much better than it actually was. Family benefits, the second biggest item in the budget, should not increase in step with GDP as more families should be capable of self-reliance during periods of prosperity. Similarly, while health and education wages will be bid up during periods of prosperity more people will also go private, which though subsidised is much less expensive to the state than the public alternative. 

In my original big government conservatism piece, I used a demographic measure, spending per person, on the grounds that this was closer to the underlying spending drivers than GDP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter - I would not claim % of GDP measures to be irrelevant, but the previous Treasurer used them to claim that his spending record was much better than it actually was. Family benefits, the second biggest item in the budget, should not increase in step with GDP as more families should be capable of self-reliance during periods of prosperity. Similarly, while health and education wages will be bid up during periods of prosperity more people will also go private, which though subsidised is much less expensive to the state than the public alternative. </p>
<p>In my original big government conservatism piece, I used a demographic measure, spending per person, on the grounds that this was closer to the underlying spending drivers than GDP.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Whiteford</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13826</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Whiteford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 05:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13826</guid>
		<description>Andrew

Re 7.  You have argued previously that you prefer to look at spending in real terms.  However, in fact there are lots of reasons why this is not the appropriate benchmark.  A large share of public spending on health, education etc is related to wage costs while age, disability, and service pensions are wage-linked as is parenting payment single, and unless they have changed the legislation so is Family Tax Payment Part A in an indirect way. Demographic change is also likely to put an upward pressure on real spending on health and pensions.  Really, only unemployment payments could be expected to behave in the way you say - fall in real terms in good economic times - and isn't unemployment predicted to increase?

 So unless we expect falling real wages, we should also expect increasing real spending in a large part of the budget.  Now you can argue that the Government should do more cutting, but you should also recognise that spending as a share of GDP is usually regarded a the appropriate benchmark for assessing the size of government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew</p>
<p>Re 7.  You have argued previously that you prefer to look at spending in real terms.  However, in fact there are lots of reasons why this is not the appropriate benchmark.  A large share of public spending on health, education etc is related to wage costs while age, disability, and service pensions are wage-linked as is parenting payment single, and unless they have changed the legislation so is Family Tax Payment Part A in an indirect way. Demographic change is also likely to put an upward pressure on real spending on health and pensions.  Really, only unemployment payments could be expected to behave in the way you say - fall in real terms in good economic times - and isn&#8217;t unemployment predicted to increase?</p>
<p> So unless we expect falling real wages, we should also expect increasing real spending in a large part of the budget.  Now you can argue that the Government should do more cutting, but you should also recognise that spending as a share of GDP is usually regarded a the appropriate benchmark for assessing the size of government.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Norton</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13821</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Norton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 02:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13821</guid>
		<description>Fred - We should be careful not to overstate the Coalition's 'small government principles' - with the exception of John Hewson and perhaps Howard for a while in the 1980s this has never been a serious ideological commitment. 'Smaller than Labor', perhaps. My critique of them as 'big government conservatives' wasn't just a cheap shot, it was taking seriously a Liberal ideology of big government that was in fact broadly consistent with long-standing Liberal commitments, such as to the family, private health, and private education. They can consistently attack a Labor version of big government if the divide is not big/small, but how the money is spent.

Alastair - Of course I don't know for sure what will be in future budgets, but I know what the incentives are - to make any decision that will upset people as long as possible before the next time they will get to vote, and to hand out the electoral bribes just before they will vote. And there is still plenty of pent-up demand for more spending from Labor's constituencies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred - We should be careful not to overstate the Coalition&#8217;s &#8217;small government principles&#8217; - with the exception of John Hewson and perhaps Howard for a while in the 1980s this has never been a serious ideological commitment. &#8216;Smaller than Labor&#8217;, perhaps. My critique of them as &#8216;big government conservatives&#8217; wasn&#8217;t just a cheap shot, it was taking seriously a Liberal ideology of big government that was in fact broadly consistent with long-standing Liberal commitments, such as to the family, private health, and private education. They can consistently attack a Labor version of big government if the divide is not big/small, but how the money is spent.</p>
<p>Alastair - Of course I don&#8217;t know for sure what will be in future budgets, but I know what the incentives are - to make any decision that will upset people as long as possible before the next time they will get to vote, and to hand out the electoral bribes just before they will vote. And there is still plenty of pent-up demand for more spending from Labor&#8217;s constituencies.</p>
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		<title>By: Working Family</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13819</link>
		<dc:creator>Working Family</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 02:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13819</guid>
		<description>I agree. I am a working family and I used to read the ABS Year Book every night, with an Alcopop, alas no more!
What this discussion really points out is all budget cuts are unimportant unless they directly impact on ME.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree. I am a working family and I used to read the ABS Year Book every night, with an Alcopop, alas no more!<br />
What this discussion really points out is all budget cuts are unimportant unless they directly impact on ME.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Argy</title>
		<link>http://andrewnorton.info/2008/05/petty-savings/#comment-13818</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Argy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 01:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewnorton.info/?p=478#comment-13818</guid>
		<description>Andrew, Nelson's rhetoric was fine but did the Coalition live up to its own "mall government" principles? The answer is they did worse than Rudd is proposing. Indeed, the comparison is much more unfriendly to the Coalition if you look at absolute levels of  public expenditure because GDP was rising strongly under Howard (thanks to a booming world economy) than it is projected to grow under Rudd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, Nelson&#8217;s rhetoric was fine but did the Coalition live up to its own &#8220;mall government&#8221; principles? The answer is they did worse than Rudd is proposing. Indeed, the comparison is much more unfriendly to the Coalition if you look at absolute levels of  public expenditure because GDP was rising strongly under Howard (thanks to a booming world economy) than it is projected to grow under Rudd.</p>
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