Comments on: A missing great book of liberty

By: Don Arthur

Don Arthur — Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:21:33 +0000

I agree. If you were teaching a course on liberalism or putting together a reader on liberalism, you’d want to include ‘Two concepts of liberty’.

It’s the kind of essay that’s equally valuable for liberals who see themselves as on the left as it is for those who see themselves as on the right.

But Berlin’s concept of ‘positive liberty’ always seems clearer and easier to understand in essays about Berlin rather than essays by him. It’s not a simple idea.

I think Berlin’s writing on pluralism is enormously important — especially when arguing with welfare economists.

By: Andrew Norton

Andrew Norton — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:51:44 +0000

Russell – The issue isn’t whether some advertising works in persuading us to buy things, but whether (in Berlin’s framework) that persuasion constitutes oppressive control over us. In my view it does not.

By: Russell

Russell — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:01:12 +0000

Andrew that’s true (“There is no greater imbalance of power than between the state and the rest of us.”) but it’s also a very examined and transparent relationship, and theoretically, under democratic control.
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When the state acts it is understood that it will act in our interest (well, in the interests of ‘working families’ at least), whereas corporations will act in the interests of their owners, possibly against the best interests of the rest of society.
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Advertising: they wouldn’t spend that much if it didn’t pay dividends for them. And it’s not just advertisers, it’s those people, like food technologists, who spend all their time inventing new ways too cram even more fat, sugar and salt into everything – it’s bad for health but it makes more profit. Their advertising can drown out, by outspending, the messages put out by government.

By: Andrew Norton

Andrew Norton — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 05:58:06 +0000

Russell – There is no greater imbalance of power than between the state and the rest of us. With advertising a) you ignore most of it (indeed, our brains filter out most of the evironmental information we encounter each day), and b) advertisers offer competing messages.

By: Russell

Russell — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 05:37:01 +0000

“Liberals are the people who are most sceptical of the state trying to shape culture.”
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Isn’t that ignoring power imbalances in society? Should it be only money that talks?
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The hippies and yippies weren’t that keen on state power.

By: Andrew Norton

Andrew Norton — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 05:26:30 +0000

I think your books below in a different 100 Great Books – how about 100 Great Books of State Power?

By: Russell

Russell — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:28:14 +0000

I’m afraid this book might be a tedious read …. if Steal This Book isn’t considered, I suppose Playpower didn’t make it either.
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Howabout The Greening of America? I recalled that one when I was thinking of the books that influenced me (you won’t be surprised).

By: Andrew Norton

Andrew Norton — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:01:22 +0000

Russell – There are some eccentric choices in the book, but none so eccentric as Marcuse or Hoffman.

As for advertising, that’s the point really – even innate desires are culturally mediated and subject to persuasion in their expression, and some of politics is a contest of who gets to try to form culture and try to persuade. Liberals are the people who are most sceptical of the state trying to shape culture.

By: Russell

Russell — Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:57:32 +0000

So who wrote the essays on Herbert Marcuse and Abbie Hoffman?
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“The threat to negative liberty comes from the nanny state trying to force us to be free of our desires to eat too much, drink too heavily, and take too many risks.”
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Would you like to mention how many billions and billions of dollars are spent each year by the advertising industry to manufacture desire?